Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Just look at Cidbahamut's post. Echo drops are "irrelevant." Its as if the clear travesty is that Silence and Amnesia even dared to affect SMN in the first place. I say if Silence is the one you have to worry about, that's pretty damn relevant. If Amnesia, walk it off/grin and bear it.

No worse than you saying Silence is irrelevant. I'm only here to call you out when you make bogus assertions.
Echo Drops are a fantastic solution for when you get hit with Silence, but that doesn't change the fact that a Summoner that is silenced won't be able to do everything that a non-silenced Summoner can. From your other posts it sounds as though you disagree.

? Why wouldn't we include subjobs into a discussion about the pros and cons about a job?

It's a by-product of the role SMN gets stuffed into. When a SMN gets invited to a party it can go for hours without ever using any of its SMN abilities and the party will consider it to be functioning perfectly well as long as they keep tossing the cures that /WHM provides them.
That mentality is running pretty rampant in this thread from what I've seen, so it would make sense for folks to try to separate the functionality of SMN from the functionality of /WHM.
When they aren't separated we end up with the idea that Silence doesn't matter because it can be fixed with Echo Drops so that SMN can keep tossing cures.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I don't know about you guys, but I hate the fact my SCH is totally defined by the RDM subjob. So much I can't stop telling other SCHs that level 68 is such a downer for the job. Ever since then, I'm just a RDM with no Refresh, Haste and some silly weather magic.

Nukes? I'm not as good as BLM at that! Why should I even bother?

T.T

SE is so mean to SCH.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)


SARCASM DETECTED!!!

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It's a by-product of the role SMN gets stuffed into. When a SMN gets invited to a party it can go for hours without ever using any of its SMN abilities and the party will consider it to be functioning perfectly well as long as they keep tossing the cures that /WHM provides them.
That mentality is running pretty rampant in this thread from what I've seen, so it would make sense for folks to try to separate the functionality of SMN from the functionality of /WHM.
When they aren't separated we end up with the idea that Silence doesn't matter because it can be fixed with Echo Drops so that SMN can keep tossing cures.

The role that SMN are invited for is arguably a problem, but it's irrelevant to the discussion going on here.

Yellow Mage would have you believe that SMN would be better off if all blood pacts were simply spells. And the only way I see that happening while maintaining game balance would be if the avatar were little more than animations that appeared, did their stuff, and disappeared as fast as they came, not dissimilar to how summons have worked in most Final Fantasy games, with X finally breaking the mold and making it its own party member. Then they would truly be the pure mage that others seem to think it is.

All for the sake of better dealing with imps. And you know what you would gain from that? Some superficial perks all while giving up the unique benefits that come from being able to control a disposable NPC. I don't know, maybe some SMNs would be happy with that. But the amount of people who want SE to make avatar melee viable as well as be given a reason to keep them out as a separate, controllable, disposable entity tells me other whys.

Tying it back to the original reason this post was made in the first place, that's why I'm skeptical of this update. It's an excuse to keep the avatar out, but will the buffs be so good that parties will be willing to invite the job as anything other than a serviceable healer? Because by keeping the avatar out to keep the effects of their buffs at full effects, they can no longer be a primary healer of a party. I'll be the first to tell you I am distrustful of the closemindedness of the playerbase.

Some would also have you believe that I am the one trying to reduce SMN to a mere WHM copy. Don't blame me. I didn't do it. Amnesia did it. But considering they are still able to perform much of the role they were invited to play while under Amnesia, I'd say that's pretty damn good in the context of simply serving their party. The combination of having inherently high MP and the tools that /WHM provides are just that good.

If your problem is how the main job is defined, that has absolutely no bearing to this discussion because, if suddenly Blood Pacts could be spammed every 30 seconds and all of their MP costs were reduced to 0, you'd still have to contend with the trouble that Imps being able to nullify them. Because as I keep saying, that's a trouble the other pet jobs have to face. All I care about, in this thread, is can the SMN still serve the party while under Amnesia? Yes, actually quite well. They're hardly "completely fucked" as others have eloquently phrased, along with cleaner words like "idiot" or "not talking about game balance" (heaven forbid game balance come into play).

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It's unreasonable because "screwed" isn't well-defined. It's redefined as many times as necessary to prove that SMN is "screwed" and other jobs are not "screwed".

The bolded bit is a fair enough assertion.

Let's see if we can't hit the ground running with this and cook up a nice ending for both sides (I can't imagine the Internet Gods would allow such a thing).

How about this: between 2 status effects - silence and amnesia - if one of these status effects (not both) causes a job or job combination to be completely shut down in its primary (and likely some secondary) roles, it's performance will be classified a certain level of sub-par play hereafter referred to as "screwed".

That said,

true assertions:

Summoner suffers "screwed" status regardless of which of the 2 status effects are used. Easy cures and whether or not you should be in this situation shouldn't figure into this. This is purely game mechanics.

Summoner is the only job that suffers from both as seen above. This is, therefore, inconsistent (which doesn't necessarily mean it's broken) with 19 other jobs.

In actual game play, dancers and likely corsairs are worse off in an Imp party than SMN. This is simply a matter of frequency of attacks and the ranges these jobs play at.

Feba is an asshat.

My opinion:

Stuff that no longer matters.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

That said,

true assertions:

Summoner suffers "screwed" status regardless of which of the 2 status effects are used. Easy cures and whether or not you should be in this situation shouldn't figure into this. This is purely game mechanics.

Summoner is the only job that suffers from both as seen above. This is, therefore, inconsistent (which doesn't necessarily mean it's broken) with 19 other jobs.

In actual game play, dancers and likely corsairs are worse off in an Imp party than SMN. This is simply a matter of frequency of attacks and the ranges these jobs play at.

Game mechanics and Gameplay go hand-in-hand. Gameplay is game designs interacting with each other. And when designs interact, a new concern comes forth - Gameplay Balance. When players interact, roles must be determined.

If I am accepted into a party as COR/RNG, then I am invited on the basis of buffs, but its accepted DD will be part of what I bring to the table. If I change the sub, buffs are the proirity, but the rest of my role changes and I have to prepare for the potential implications that come with it. If I change my sub at the party's request, I am giving consent to what they want.

One facet of design cannot be an island when it does not remain isolated. The argument being made here is a reverse-strawman argument where anything that interacts with the isolated design can be declared irrelevant or negative to SMN.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Feba is an asshat.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

How about this: between 2 status effects - silence and amnesia - if one of these status effects (not both) causes a job or job combination to be completely shut down in its primary (and likely some secondary) roles, it's performance will be classified a certain level of sub-par play hereafter referred to as "screwed".

Alright, but I'm going to hold you to that "completely". I think we're going to end up still disagreeing over "primary roles", though, because Ketaru and I (for example) have been saying all along that one of a SMN's primary roles is healing, which they clearly can continue to do under Amnesia. There is a vocal contingent in favor of DDSMN, but even they know that their views don't represent the way SMNs actually function in parties -- that's the whole reason they're calling for radical redesigns of the job to fit their ideas of what it should be.

I wouldn't expect either you or Armando to deny that healing is one of the "primary roles" of SMN, and Amnesia doesn't stop a SMN from healing, so seriously, what gives?

Summoner suffers "screwed" status regardless of which of the 2 status effects are used. Easy cures and whether or not you should be in this situation shouldn't figure into this. This is purely game mechanics.

Nope. You said complete shutdown of primary roles and an Amnesia'd SMN doesn't have it. Their primary roles are only *partially* shut down -- support BPs are shut down (except for ones cast before/during the pull that remain in effect), but healing is not. (One of their secondary roles, damage, is also crippled, since they have at most avatar auto-attack, and then only if they managed to use a no-casting-time pet command before the imp got to 100% TP. Favor is also not shut down, but we don't know yet whether that will be a primary or a secondary role in practice post-update.)

You wrote the definition and you're still weaseling out of it.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I can't imagine the Internet Gods would allow such a thing.

Normally, it would be much too easy to call out the fact you think accusations of stubborness will discredit me. So instead, I'll just sit on top of my throne and say that the greatest thing about being an Internet God is it's not my job to agree with anything you say. If you want somebody like that, hire an office assistant.

How about this: between 2 status effects - silence and amnesia - if one of these status effects (not both) causes a job or job combination to be completely shut down in its primary (and likely some secondary) roles, it's performance will be classified a certain level of sub-par play hereafter referred to as "screwed".

Following you so far...

Summoner suffers "screwed" status regardless of which of the 2 status effects are used. Easy cures and whether or not you should be in this situation shouldn't figure into this. This is purely game mechanics.

Cures don't count...got it...

Summoner is the only job that suffers from both as seen above. This is, therefore, inconsistent (which doesn't necessarily mean it's broken) with 19 other jobs.

Now you hold on just a minute there. How often do I have to bring SCH back into this discussion? SCH is a job that relies very heavily on being able to both cast spells and use job abilities. Arguably, its job abilities are a greater selling point than its spells. Like SMN, abilities and spellcasting always work in tandem with each other.

When Silenced, SCH might as well be under Amnesia because Stratagems literally don't do anything if you don't cast accompanying magic. Every single one of them besides Sublimation requires magic to follow (Stratagems) or magic to be casted prior to its use (Modus Veritas).

When under Amnesia, a SCH is reduced to some of the most basic spells in the game: Cure, Regen, Status removers. You've set the terms, these don't count because they are the default expectations of any main healer. We invite SMNs or SCHs and expect them to use what defines them as a job apart from WHMs or RDMs. Weather may be so, but until Stormsurge, those are subtle, inconsequential effects. Black magic is moot on Imps because they are resistant to most forms of magic besides the kind that deals Physical Damage. Amnesia effectively locks SCH out of what defines it as a healer apart from the others that are invited as healers. If anybody says SCH can still cast cures while under Amnesia, they're...why they're reducing SCH to being an imitation WHM!

You don't want to bring status removers and Dispel into this because then you have to go back to job abilities: Dark Arts, Addendum: Black, Light Arts, Addendum: White. If you sub /WHM, you have to use not one, but 2 job abilities from Light Arts to get access to just Dispel. If you sub /RDM, you could arguably stay on Light Arts, Add:White and just suck up the casting penalty for Dispel, but then you'd lose out on Curaga (II), arguably more important in Caedarva Mire than most other camps in the game.

Given all that, I'm suspicious when Yellow Mage says Blood Pacts should be spells to circumvent Amnesia. Or Armando backing up his position by saying SMN is a mage when SCH is even more of a pure mage than SMN. Why shouldn't I get a piece of the lolAmnesia Pie? I'm being argumentative by the way, I don't actually believe SCH should be exempt from Amnesia rules.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I wouldn't expect either you or Armando to deny that healing is one of the "primary roles" of SMN, and Amnesia doesn't stop a SMN from healing, so seriously, what gives?

But how will Carbuncle use Healing Ruby?

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

.-. ._. .-. ._. .-. ._. .-. ._. -rolls over and over-

I played PLD in my first Imps party last night. A fair amount of the time I was Silenced and JA Locked. We had PLD DRK DRG DRG RDM COR. Made 18k an hour, about 2 1/2 hours; almost got Lvl 70 :/ damnit.

I count myself in the SMN group who gets fkd by S/AT. BUT GUESS WHAT I STILL FUNCTIONED MY JOB WELL! Still held hate, still made great xp, and still worked with the rest of the pt with no problem.

All this fkn whining is for the birds. STFU already lollmuffins

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I kept typing and typing...

And I'm not going about this right. The more words I use, the more chances I give myself to insert impressions and the more opportunities I give everyone else to find a sentence to pull apart.

I see your position: it's entirely grounded in gameplay. And it's correct. And you probably see that COR rolls are JAs under a single JA timer. Locking down JAs shuts it all down. And yet when I say the summon -> BP -> Release process is that job's current methodology of accessing their only class abilities (and, as such, is the only routine blocked by either status effect), all 3 of you talk about other details.

I just don't care about those details. I just want you to say "correct. It's the only such routine". Then you can follow it with explaining all you want about how irrelevant that detail is.

--

Ketaru: you're not what I was referring to as an Internet God. If you took that as a personal attack, you took it wrong.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I just don't care about those details. I just want you to say "correct. It's the only such routine". Then you can follow it with explaining all you want about how irrelevant that detail is.

We have time and again acknowledged that the summoning process is dependent on both summoning magic and JA pet commands. When you were just abbreviating it to "fucked by both," I eventually had to spell out the process so we could get beyond the exclamation to the actual meaning, so don't think we don't understand the mechanics here.

What we don't understand is why SMN - when Amnesia was designed to affect all JAs - should be exempt from the status. I don't think you or Armando have been the ones maintaining that they should be exempt, you just wanted people to acknowledge this small distinction. However, other people seem to be implying they should be an exception, but have yet to build a credible case for it. They just want to see mounting evidence for "fucked" because they dislike restrictions, particularly the ones they face on a well-worn path everyone else seems to enjoy.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What good is a DNC that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

When I went through the "imp levels" as DNC, I had no problem fighting them. Yes it was anoying, but its not hard.

Fight starts > samba/build up steps > get hit with amnesia > DD till amnesia wears, or if I really need to do somthing, use my ring and do it right away.

Thats all there is to it, do I hate imps? yes, do I bitch and complain because "I cant do anything"? no I don't, because I can do something.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What we don't understand is why SMN - when Amnesia was designed to affect all JAs - should be exempt from the status. I don't think you or Armando have been the ones maintaining that they should be exempt, you just wanted people to acknowledge this small distinction. However, other people seem to be implying they should be an exception, but have yet to build a credible case for it.

If you were referring to me, I just want to make it clear that I personally want to avoid an exception being made just for Summoners. To me, that would just be a lazy way of programming around yet another one of Summoner's problems, not to mention a surefire way to incite outrage from quite a few other classes.

I have always maintained that Blood Pacts should have been Magic spells from the outset of avatars to begin with, and yes, it is true that that would exclude Blood Pacts from being affected by Amnesia status. However, that is hardly the only reason why I want it to happen, just an exemplary and obviously unforeseen side-effect of the mistake that was making them Abilities.

Regarding everything else that should count as Pet Abilities, however (Assault, Dismiss, and so on), those I have never argued making an exception for. (Heck, in one of my posts earlier in the thread addressed to you, I specifically pointed out that not being able to Dismiss wouldn't be so bad if the Summoner was able to do anything else with the avatar at all.)

Because I have neither the time nor the energy to rant about it in detail, I'll just summarize what I mean by Ketaru what I mean by making Blood Pacts in to spells: Think of each avatar and the line of Blood Pacts available from each as a spellbook (with the "base spellbook" being the list of avatars you can summon, like it is now). What making Blood Pacts in to magic would do, aside from giving each Blood Pact its own recast timer (each Blood Pact would have to be rebalanced individually for that, of course), allow the Summoner himself to be worth more than just a meat-sack of MP for perpetuating and invoking the avatar with, maybe dressed in gear for that "Summoning Magic Skill over cap" nonsense (no other Mage in the game, not even Blue Mage, works that way!). Imagine if Summoners could put their second-highest INT and MND in the game to use on the functions granted to them by their Job, for example (we already have the Blood Pacts divided in to "Rages" and "Wards," you know).

Obviously what I'm asking for isn't as "simple" a solution as you think I make it out to be. If one thing's clear, I'm rather sick of S-E wasting time to tweak around the fact that Blood Pacts aren't actually Magic (Summoning Magic Skillups update, Summoning Magic Skill actually meaning something . . . when it's over cap . . . heck, the entire Summoner community went crazy at the ground-breaking news that they were getting another recast timer to work with, for crying out loud!), rather then just working to make them Magic outright. And while Avatar's Favor does seem like a genuine effort on S-E's part to fix a few of Summoner's problems (perpetuation cost vs. reward) as opposed to just trying to work around the elephant again, this hardly looks like something that could lead in to an overhauling of how Summoner works. Not to mention that I can't help but fear that S-E would do something silly like making Blood Pact Abilities exceptions to Amnesia, something that, as I have explained above, I am vehemently opposed to.