Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

As brilliant as you believe your questions to be regarding Summoner, you are currently residing in the space where spamming, ad nauseam arguments, and copypasta overlap.

YM, I say this as a friend: This is because you're being a stupid dick right now.


A really, really big one.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I've been gone for 4 days. And while I was gone, this thread turned even more bull shit. Why do people refuse to understand when they can't stand to be seen as wrong?

I will ask you again.

What good is a THF that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a BST that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a DNC that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

Is a COR that can't use roll anything other than a gimped RNG?

Is a PUP whose puppet is incapable of performing its abilities anything more than a gimped MNK?

Why don't we turn Reward and Sic and all automaton abilities into spells too?

THF: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

BST: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

DNC: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

COR: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

PUP: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

Not to mention all of the above get to continue adding DPS. Even if it's not great DPS, it's something they're doing all the time anyway, and they get to continue.

SMN, meanwhile, Cannot even make the Avatar attack.

SMN is completely fucked regardless.

And I know, The SMN should be out of range except - oh shit, your DDs? They're still amnesia'd from the last 2 imps! they can't voke it off you! Wandering happens. It sucks.

Ketaru, 'Bbq: You haven't shown any ability to see the words we're saying and are instead jumping to implications.

For instance, you guys probably think that I'm saying SMN are the worst job to bring to an imp party.

Hint: I'm not. It's just irrelevant to the point that's been continually misconstrued for about a week straight.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

if you guys don't stop bitching about imps, SE is going to take us back to the crab-standard.


seriously shut the fuck up about the goddamn imps. we've had it so much worse.

Good point. Haven't colibri been the golden standard for exp? They don't Silence or Amnesia.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Truth.

I love you Lmnop.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I've been gone for 4 days. And while I was gone, this thread turned even more bull shit. Why do people refuse to understand when they can't stand to be seen as wrong?

THF: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

BST: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

DNC: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

COR: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

PUP: If 1 of 2 Imp WSs affect it, it gets castrated 50% of the time.

Not to mention all of the above get to continue adding DPS. Even if it's not great DPS, it's something they're doing all the time anyway, and they get to continue.

SMN, meanwhile, Cannot even make the Avatar attack.

SMN is completely fucked regardless.

And I know, The SMN should be out of range except - oh shit, your DDs? They're still amnesia'd from the last 2 imps! they can't voke it off you! Wandering happens. It sucks.

Ketaru, 'Bbq: You haven't shown any ability to see the words we're saying and are instead jumping to implications.

For instance, you guys probably think that I'm saying SMN are the worst job to bring to an imp party.

Hint: I'm not. It's just irrelevant to the point that's been continually misconstrued for about a week straight.

THF is always in range of Tantaras. BST is always in range of Tantaras. DNC is always in range of Tantaras. PUP is always in range of Tantaras. Their jobs require them to always be in range of Tantaras or they're not fulfilling their conditions for being part of their party.

SMN is not always in range of Tantaras. At least half of its utility when invited to a traditional party is done from far away. They will not always get caught in Tantaras. When it does, it's because it's utilizing the pet job aspects of its gameplay. Guess what, lots of jobs have crossover aspects in many situations. I know it's hard to imagine, but maybe, just maybe, SMN is a mage-pet hybrid. Mage stuff is spell driven. Pet stuff is ability driven. Only a subjobless SMN is "fucked" because, if they are caught in Amnesia, they can still perform what they agree upon when a conventional EXP party invites them.

It's convenient to pretend there is no such thing as typical party placement, but SCH, BRD, and COR would tell you otherwhys. BRD has been telling people for years, "Mages over here, melee over there, and never the twain shall meet." It's also getting tiring that, just for the sake of SMN, people continue to argue as if we're in a subjobless universe when subjob utility of many jobs has always been part of the discussion of job updates for years. They are not irrelevant, that is precisely my point in my questions. If it is really such a shameful fact that SMN subs /WHM to a conventional party, they can choose not to join a conventional party. The fact that Blood Pacts have such timers attached to them is indicative that SMN's MP is for more than just avatar play. I mean, we certainly aren't seeing any BRD/WHM or COR/WHM main healers, despite the fact they can self-apply Refresh. You keep on belaboring the miserable situation that you can't send the avatar to attack when parties don't want you to in the first place.

Not even to speak of the continued refusal to acknowledge that SMN is a pet job as well as a mage job...

And I know, The SMN should be out of range except - oh shit, your DDs? They're still amnesia'd from the last 2 imps! they can't voke it off you! Wandering happens. It sucks.

Oh my God, no other healer has faced this predicament before. Not WHM. Not RDM. And certainly not SCH! And if it did happen to me, I'm better off than SMN cause I can just pull out my Joyeuse and start smacking away right? Please, this is just grasping at straws.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Good Lord. Ketaru, I want so much for you to be right, but . . .

I know it's hard to imagine, but maybe, just maybe, SMN is a mage-pet hybrid. Mage stuff is spell driven. Pet stuff is ability driven.

You seem to forget that the only spells Summoners are given natively are calling the pets themselves (and wouldn't that part normally fall under "Pet stuff," anyway?). We wouldn't have such a problem with the Summoners being unable to even Dismiss under Amnesia were it not for that fact they can't do anything else with the Avatar, either! If Summoner really did do its Mage stuff with spells, it wouldn't be such a problem, but alas: even its Mage side is Ability driven, just with Abilities that just so happen to cost MP.

And you'll inevitably bring up this argument again in response:

It's also getting tiring that, just for the sake of SMN, people continue to argue as if we're in a subjobless universe when subjob utility of many jobs has always been part of the discussion of job updates for years. They are not irrelevant, that is precisely my point in my questions.

It's irrelevant because we're not talking about the performance of just any MP/WHM here, we're talking about the performance of the Summoner job itself. If you don't care to distinguish between the two, then I have nothing more to say to you other than that you brought up yet another problem with Summoner all together.

The point is, with either Tantara, a Summoner is screwed from doing anything but its subjob (and for half of the Tanaras, not even that!). You talk to us like we do not know this, but in reality, typing "but its subjob" is really using unnecessary words to explain something that should have been implied, anyway. And DD/NINs still have it better, anyway, because in addition to the subjobs they also have (which are also disabled by the other half of the Tanaras), even if they are hit with the one of two Tantaras that they actually care about, they can still contribute to DPS against the mob, something you repeatedly ignore or disregard as practically nothing. Summoners can't even do that.

Please answer, how many times do we have you explain that to you before you get stop intentionally misunderstanding it?



Meanwhile, BBQ's having a fit because it would apparently break Summoners to have their Blood Pacts be Magic instead of Abilities (which, by the way, totally contradicts his assertion that Summoners were the first job with physical magic in the game, since they were more like physical abilities that cost MP . . .). He's afraid that would make them "the unstoppable exception." But they are already the exception as Mages of the school that mostly doesn't cast Magic, and it completely broke them the other way, reducing them to a pet job that had no resources other than MP and an array of job-specific stats (to exacerbate the issue, Shantotto pants with "Elemental Siphon" +20, anybody?), most of which relating to MP, anyway.

Making Summoner Blood Pacts Magic wouldn't make them an exception, it would make them the norm. Because they would still be a pet job as well, Amnesia would still affect them. Really, the only practical difference it would make would be that they would be able to cast Blood Pacts while under the effect of a status effect that, by Ketaru's arguments, should never (apparently ever) be under in the first place, as opposed to just sitting around doing nothing but losing MP and casting the occasional subjob spell (that apparently currently defines the job).

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

>.> so, would you prefer they keep the basic pet commands, but make all blood pacts additional spells for the SMN rather than commands?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Dude, for how long have I been saying that Blood Pacts should be made in to Magic now? Almost everything else I've never really had a problem with, as I pretty much see that as the root problem behind Summoner.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Not to mention all of the above get to continue adding DPS. Even if it's not great DPS, it's something they're doing all the time anyway, and they get to continue.

CORs and DNCs aren't invited for DPS, its just accepted that they can do it, so why would you even begin to argue that "at least you can DPS" when 100% of their job abilities are shut down? DNCs actually have an awesome way of avoiding the problem - they don't camp imps.

SMN is completely fucked regardless

If they get silenced they can't command the avatar because it needs MP; If they get amnesia, they can't command the avatar to use MP, cannot send it away thus draining MP and cannot rest to recover MP.

You seem to think we don't understand this, we totally do.

Its just none of you have made a good case for why SMN should be the special exception because everyone knows that when they go to Ceadarva Mire, imps happen. Don't like imps? No one's making you stay. You have to go to Mire just as much as you have to go to the Dunes, which is not at all.

Then guys like YM try to make subjobs off-limits in this discussion, even though you'll play the "at least you guys can still DPS" card on the frontline. The point of /WHM still being functional has to be pointed out and cannot be denied just because it behooves a SMN to play the supporting role. Don't act like SMNs are the only ones that detest subbing WHM, you've heard my COR/WHM rants and plenty of RDM/WHM ones.

If you're going to say "at least you can still DPS," then we get to call a spade a spade and say at least you can still cure.

Guess what? After this update, we'll get to say "At least SMN can still cure and keep a buff active on the PT." So even if you can't command your avatar, its still doing something now. That new JA of yours is active for two hours and gives a passive buffing ability to avatars.

But its not good enough.
Its never good enough.

Because SMN is the vindictive ex-girlfriend of FFXI. If anything proves that little hypothesis, its been this thread, because you guys harp about how SMN is still totally fucked when as of this update they're going to be bringing PTs benefits from the main job in the face of Amnesia. The MP you're ticking down won't totally be in vain.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The reason to keep subjobs out of the discussion is because every single time it comes up it quickly degenerates into the Summoner using its subjob and nothing else.

If you want to discuss SMN then discuss SMN.
If you want to discuss /WHM then discuss /WHM.

But for the love of god, don't confuse the two.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The reason to keep subjobs out of the discussion is because every single time it comes up it quickly degenerates into the Summoner using its subjob and nothing else.

Per this update, that's not true at all. Buffs will come from the avatars, which could still be standing out there while the SMN has amnesia. Feel free to dream up some other argument to the contrary, though.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Then guys like YM try to make subjobs off-limits in this discussion, even though you'll play the "at least you guys can still DPS" card on the frontline. The point of /WHM still being functional has to be pointed out and cannot be denied just because it behooves a SMN to play the supporting role.

If you're going to say "at least you can still DPS," then we get to call a spade a spade and say at least you can still cure.

You say this as if auto-attacking was an Ability granted by the /NIN subjob.

If they get silenced they can't command the avatar because it needs MP

Actually, Silence on a Summoner (apart from blocking those wonderful mandatory /WHM functions) only prevents a Summoner from Summoning an avatar in the first place as it is. It can still perpetuate the avatar, have it attack, dismiss it, and even use Blood Pacts at any time with the way they are now. To Summoner as the job is right now, Silence is really only an impediment to the "call-dismiss" style of play, because once they Dismiss, they can't call any more.

Its just none of you have made a good case for why SMN should be the special exception

I just said and explained how Summoner is a Mage that is minimally impacted by Silence. They are already an exception, we want it to not be one.

Because SMN is the vindictive

Vindictive? What, you mean like this?

Guess what? After this update, we'll get to say "At least SMN can still cure and keep a buff active on the PT."

. . . or was that just spiteful?

If anything proves that little hypothesis, its been this thread, because you guys harp about how SMN is still totally fucked when as of this update they're going to be bringing PTs benefits from the main job in the face of Amnesia. The MP you're ticking down won't totally be in vain.

While the update Summoner is getting is indeed a very good thing, it's hardly going to solve all their problems. If anything, that's what you argue in your very post. Oh, and one more thing:

SMN is the vindictive ex-girlfriend of FFXI. If anything proves that little hypothesis, its been this thread, because you guys harp about how SMN is still totally fucked

The people that have been arguing for Summoner in this thread were Malacite, Lmnop, Armando, and myself: a Samurai, a Warrior, a Paladin, and a Red Mage. Yeah, it's totally Summoners being vindictive, and not anything to do with the job itself having any real problems at all. Did I mention that half of this group is hardly ever wrong?

Well, whatever. I need to be getting to sleep, anyway. I guess I'll see more either your or Ketaru's circular reasoning in the morning.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

THF is always in range of Tantaras. BST is always in range of Tantaras.

Irrelevant to my point. I'm not talking about game balance. I'm talking about game mechanics having a fundamental flaw. In this instance: a pet whose instructions are based on JA availability and a reliance on casting to be able to have them around in the first place. You're right, btw. DNC is screwed more on Imps than SMN. but it simply doesn't change the point that they're only affected by 1 of 2 abilities.

Every job combination in the game either has a 50% chance of being royally fucked or a 100% chance of being hampered but still functional.

Except SMN who gets the same royal fuck treatment 100% of the time.

Until you address the above (and when I say address, I mean you have exactly two choices: agree or give me evidence that says those exact words are incorrect), you're simply spinning wheels.

Please, don't tell me about grasping for straws. You're the one building strawmen around here. Everything you've argued has been exactly that.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

(and when I say address, I mean you have exactly two choices: agree or give me evidence that says those exact words are incorrect)

You can claim to win any argument when you define unreasonable terms of success.

Why the fuck should the way ONE MOB performs be the basis for reforming an entire job? You think that, perhaps, SMNs are NOT INTENDED TO FIGHT THAT MOB? That there are some mobs that some jobs simply should not be made to combat? That crippling the job may be INTENTIONAL?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

That there are some mobs that some jobs simply should not be made to combat?

Just as Summoner is crippled on imps the Blue Mage job excels at killing them. It's a valid point that sometimes you have to accept your job isn't capable of besting all content without difficulty or considerable help.