Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The main thing we're arguing here is that it is completely asinine for SMN to totally shut down regardless of which of the two Tantaras are used on it.

Sure it can still cast during Amnesia, but avatars are basically dead weight. Actually, Spirits will still function as normal since you can't control them to begin with; but any SMN who opts to use Spirits in place of Avatars for any extended length of time needs to have their head examined. Spirits are the biggest MP sponges in the game.

This wouldn't be an issue if blood pacts worked as spells, the avatars have some kind of AI set up similar to that of the Automaton. By which I mean you still order them around with JA's, but they will also periodically fire off abilities of their own accord.

Either that or they exempt avatar commands (at the very least Release) from Amnesia. I actually kinda like the idea of spending MP on JA's, just because no other job does that; but I don't want to go any further into the matter of how fucked up BP's are, that horse is long dead and there's very little left to beat...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

So in summary:

Armando - "It was an oversight SE made and they're just too slow to fix it."
Yellow Mage - "Nyarrr! Main Job! Main Job! Main Job!"

So SE totally didn't give everyone a way out of Amnesia that you could use til you got out of Caedarva Mire, nor has this update or previous ones expanded potential subjobs for SMN. Yeah, let's totally ignore the potentials of SCH and even BRD now. Let's ignore that Amnesia affects everyone, too.

"Not in the same way," you say. It locks off JAs, prevents WS for everyone. Same way for everyone. Your SMN can't dismiss under that effect and my COR can't double up. Same damn frustration.

No one has give substantial reason why SMN should be a special exception to Amnesia, even after being asked several times and having plenty of chances to give good reasons why. They get as" fucked over" as anyone else by Amnesia.

What happens when you get Summoning magic Pathos - what do you say then? "Oversight by SE?"

T'm just wrapping it up with this,

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What a mature closing argument.

"Not in the same way," you say. It locks off JAs, prevents WS for everyone. Same way for everyone. Your SMN can't dismiss under that effect and my COR can't double up. Same damn frustration.

No one has give substantial reason why SMN should be a special exception to Amnesia, even after being asked several times and having plenty of chances to give good reasons why. They get as" fucked over" as anyone else by Amnesia.

I think I see where you're getting this wrong. You're saying that the Blood Pact Job Abilities should not be exceptions to the Amnesia rule, and, in that sense, Summoner gets screwed over "the same way as everyone else." I'll be blunt here - I totally agree with you that Blood Pacts should not be made special exceptions to the Amnesia Job Ability screw. To do that would be rather unfair to Dancers and Scholars, among other jobs, not to mention it would be a lazy way of programming around the problem.

The truth is, though, Summoner gets screwed especially hard by things that shouldn't even count as Job Abilities in the first place. They get screwed over just as much by Silence, like any other mage would. So, why the redundant screwing? The solution to this problem is, as I have said time and time again, Blood Pacts should be Magic, not Abilities. That way, they don't get any special exceptions, their job starts functioning more like the mage it should have been from the start, they still get hampered by Amnesia through their basic Pet Commands, but they aren't completely disabled from doing anything while the avatar is out. Rather than their MP going down the drain from being unable to Dismiss, they can burn it on some productive spells and then get their MP back some way or another. They won't be exceptions - they'll be mages.



Also, Malacite, I thanked you until I read this:

I actually kinda like the idea of spending MP on JA's, just because no other job does that

BBQ, if I may borrow that:

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

This is what it sounds like to me:

JA-based job gets silenced
>"Meh, I can live without shadows for a little bit"
JA-based job gets amnesia
>"Fuck, I can't do my job"

Mage gets silenced
>"Fuck, I can't do my job"
Mage gets amnesia
>"Meh, I can live without JAs for a little bit"

Summoner gets silenced
>"Fuck, can't do my job"
Summoner gets amnesia
>"Fuck, can't do my job"

Is that what you guys were getting at in those huge walls of text?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

This is what it sounds like to me:

JA-based job gets silenced
>"Meh, I can live without shadows for a little bit"
JA-based job gets amnesia
>"Fuck, I can't do my job"

Mage gets silenced
>"Fuck, I can't do my job"
Mage gets amnesia
>"Meh, I can live without JAs for a little bit"

Summoner gets silenced
>"Fuck, can't do my job"
Summoner gets amnesia
>"Fuck, can't do my job"

Is that what you guys were getting at in those huge walls of text?

That's what they're trying to get at, but they like to gloss over the fact its easier to cure Silence with Echo Drops than to drop Amnesia. Everyone is glossing over the fact that even if you did have an Ecphoria Ring to cure your Amnesia, it would likely wear off before you had the charge ready on SMN.

People are acting like Amnesia is some kind of massive clusterfuck status ailment for SMN when it wears off just as fast for them as anyone else. At worst, you're going to have an avatar out for a few more ticks.

If Ketaru's experience is anything to go by, he can do his job a safe distance from an Imp, even more safely than a BRD, COR or SCH could. This is much do to the fact that SMN did get an update to buff range in a prior update. Something we all seem to easily forget because SE has totally been neglecting SMN all this last year.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

This is much do to the fact

due

Also, don't talk to me about a Summoner update until they get to actually overhauling some stuff rather than just tweaking (at best; at worst, lazily programming around) the minor things. This update has significance for its potential to have more Summoners perpetuate their avatars (rather than call-dismiss) as well as reducing the cost to perpetuate with.

Also again, it's stupid that Summoner, which is supposed to be a mage, gets so excessively screwed over by both Amnesia and Silence. Why do you not find that stupid? And please answer in a way that lacks spite or bile.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

due

Attacking typos this late in the game is a sign of desperation and little else. Firefox only catches so much.

Also, don't talk to me about a Summoner update until they get to actually overhauling some stuff rather than just tweaking (at best; at worst, lazily programming around) the minor things. This update has significance for its potential to have more Summoners perpetuate their avatars (rather than call-dismiss) as well as reducing the cost to perpetuate with.[/quote]

When you make up your mind about what an update is and what a tweak is, it will be a lot easier to discuss the that. As it stands, we don't know the full impact of the update, but we have SMNs writing it off as a tweak already.

Its hard to take SMNs seriously when they act like the vindictive ex-girlfriend all the time. Nothing is ever good enough because nothing can be good enough. The ex-boyfriend is a failure because that's what she's decided he is, not because its true. It gets old.

Also again, it's stupid that Summoner, which is supposed to be a mage, gets so excessively screwed over by both Amnesia and Silence. Why do you not find that stupid? And please answer in a way that lacks spite or bile.

I've given the answer several times now:

Everyone is affected by amnesia.
All magic users are affected by silence.
Many jobs can be silenced and have amnesia at the same time and be totally locked down
Amnesia wears off faster than silence, but echo drops fix silence instantly.
Echo drops are a low level Alchemy synth anyone can achieve with regular success or buy off the AH.
In the time it would take an Ecphoria Ring to charge, Amnesia would have worn off anyway.

In this regard, Summoner has no special problems. I don't find this stupid at all, what I do find stupid are SMNs that don't carry echo drops and dance around in the frontline where they can get amnesia. They stand where they're supposed to, the chance of either Silence or Amnesia decreases. If SMN gets Amnesia, they can grin and bear it for 15 seconds or less, I'm sure. We all do.

[Balfree]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I was once a RDM.

I lrn2play right? I knew that Imps have 2 moves, a AOE silence and a AOE amnesia, if they didn't use one, they'd use the other, simple.

They only use those moves when they have TP, ok that much i understand!

There are people giving the Imp TP, constantly, hmm...

The Imp just used a move! It missed me because I was far away enough, i'm a pro!

Right now I need to get close to the party for bar-pwnga... but i might get hit by one of those moves... think head think!

I could go NOW because the Imp just used it... or maybe instead i'll wait for it to use another one of those moves and then I'll go in to re-buff right after it because i know from playing this game to lv75 (on multiple jobs) that mobs take a while to regain TP back, which leaves me some time to act in the time it takes them to use a TP move again.

---

Hi! I'm a BRD ... i live in fear of getting bomb-tossed when i'm singing my singings

From that, i learned to read the battle tide! The flow of the battle itself is what makes me define my singing cycle, i adapt to the circumstances, and this makes the game interesting! Right now im waiting here a bit next to the WHM because that Imp is just about to use an AOE move... i'll wait for it to use it and then ill rush in and buff my mates who are struggling to defeat the Imp! Its a little bit of a pain sometimes... but everyone is in their own struggle you know!

Finito.


Other jobs could maybe learn a thing or two from that RDM and BRD, who shall remain nameless because im bored and i dont care.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

BRDs actual plight is just being treated like tool. All that AoE damage you get hit with is perfect for capping evasion early! Actually, that goes for COR, too. Granted our evasion rating sucks, but its a nice head start for other jobs.

SAM and MNK's plight is staying awake in the PT.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

SAM and MNK's plight is staying awake in the PT.

I fell asleep as a mage once.

Surprisingly, my party kept me around for another 2k~ EXP after that.

When I contacted one of them to apologize, they replied that it happens all the time.

JP parties, man.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What have we learned from the past few pages?

In preparation for Deafening Tantara:

Have Echo drops ready.

In preparation for Abrasive Tantara:

Hope the Imp uses Deafening Tantara or that you got an Ecphoria ring.



Meanwhile, bring up Amnesiana/Amnesia curatives in your local Feedback Thread/POL Feedback Mail/Vana'fest.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What have we learned from the past few pages?

In preparation for Deafening Tantara:

Have Echo drops ready.

In preparation for Abrasive Tantara:

Hope the Imp uses Deafening Tantara or that you got an Ecphoria ring.



Meanwhile, bring up Amnesiana/Amnesia curatives in your local Feedback Thread/POL Feedback Mail/Vana'fest.

How about:

Don't fucking fight imps in the first goddamn place!

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Ninjas and /NINs are affected by either status ailment, but are still functional either way.

Now you're just playing Humpty Dumpty with the word "functional". A NIN that can only auto attack is "functional", but a SMN that can cure isn't? Whatever. There's no arguing with someone determined to define their way to victory.

In response to the "well, Summoner can still use spells from its sub" argument, congratulations! You just reduced Summoner back to the same MP/WHM problem it's been in for years and accomplished absolutely nothing!

Right, cause SE totally designed the job with the biggest MP pool in the game to never cast any spells. So if all you can do is cast spells you're totally worthless. And since Amnesia is on you 100% of the time in 100% of all camps, the way your job works under Amnesia is the way it works, period. I guess that means DNC needs some pretty big updates.

Or, you know, jobs like DNC, COR, SCH, and SMN could *not fight imps*. (Except in Nyzul, where you can't choose whether to fight imps or not, but most of the time you are not fighting imps.) Lots of jobs hate imps, it really shouldn't be that hard to find people for a non-imp party, especially if your job works just fine against colibri (which SMN does).

[BurningPanther]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Right, cause SE totally designed the job with the biggest MP pool in the game to never cast any spells.

Taking a moment to throw about some silly, heretical ideas:

Suppose that massive mana pool were intended less to cast spells from the sub and more to perpetuate avatars?

How about:

Don't fucking fight imps in the first goddamn place!

Ahhh yeh beat meh!

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I honestly don't have any problem with SMN using MP to activate JA's (particularly since BLU essentially uses MP in lieu of TP if you think about it)

It's the combination of per cost + summoning cost + pact cost that's ridiculous. SMN needs MP for every little thing it does.

The only other thing that could potentially be much better, would have been to remove perpetuation costs and increase the summoning cost of the avatars, and giving them their own MP to spend & separate pact timers (that either don't reset when you dismiss the avatar and cool down like any other JA, or have a much longer recast for said avatar. I'll take the former)

This way they would end up functioning closer to how they did in X, which IMO was a great system. I mean, a PUP's automaton has it's own MP supply, why shouldn't avatars? Maybe remove the MP cost entirely from physical pacts and only keep it in for the magical ones, Astral Flow included (AF should be the only one that drains the SMN's MP maybe? would depend on the increased casting cost of the avatars.)

I have no issue with SMN needing a lot of MP to function, I just think that cost should be paid upfront for the avatar (thus justifying their increased over-all performance) rather than in aggravating increments over time (pacts + perp)

But it'll never happen. XIV is out next year and wtf would SE do with all that -perp gear?