Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Take a job with no innate DA or DA gear and then add a Smn. Just let the job keep swinging while Ifrit sits there picking his nose and giving you a DA boost. Do it for say, an hour (chances are the buffs will peak long before then). Then check the parser to see when DA rate starts to increase and by how much they start to increase.

I don't think most parsers will be able to distinguish well between different stages of the increasing buff strength. Not to mention with a random proc like DA you might need a huge number of trials to figure out what the rate is.

That's why I suggested testing with Titan or Carbuncle first to find out simple things like "how long does it take a Favor buff to reach max strength?" and "what percentage of max strength does it start out at?". (It's possible that the answers to those questions themselves might vary from one buff to another, but trying to prove it with Ifrit would be a real pain in the ass. Although not quite as bad as trying to prove it with Leviathan or Fenrir...) Once you know the time to max strength, you can just summon Ifrit, wait the appropriate number of minutes, and then start meleeing and your DA rate will equal the rate at max strength. (If you start early, the parser will average together all the DAs you got divided by number of swings, combining your below-max rate and your maxed-out rate.)


P.S. You don't need a second job to do the test, because SMN *is* a job with no innate DA. Just swing at the mob(s) yourself. This also allows you to use Spirit Taker, and if applicable, Aspir Samba to extend the time you can keep the avatar out (other than Carby, who you can probably keep for free or near-free anyway -- another reason to test him first).

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

"All this whining" is precisely because of the fact some people seem to think SMN is a special case that is the only job that gets miserably crippled by imps, despite the fact that, say, NIN is also a job that relies on both being able to WS and being able to cast spells. In fact, that can just about apply to any melee job that subs /NIN to Imps. Amnesia is just terrible for SCH and BST, from my humble experience.

Holy cow, what's with the people and the not getting it lately?

BBQ: what it boils down to

Suppose an imp uses just one weapon skill of its 2 potential moves. There is a 50% chance that what move it uses will screw over a DNC over and a 50% chance that it'll mess up a WHM (even though the latter is curable with echo drops and they shouldn't be in range).

Every job combination in the game either has a 50% chance of being royally fucked or a 100% chance of being hampered but still functional.

Except SMN who gets the same royal fuck treatment 100% of the time.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

And why do people continue to conveniently deny that other jobs, like NIN, are similarly affected by both Amnesia and Silence? And they are always in range of AoE.

SMN can't use healing spells when they're Silenced? That's why all mages are expected to carry Echo Drops on them. SCH is no exception to this as it is just as required to position itself as SMN in this regard. I've made my case for why SCH is just as badly affected by Amnesia as SMN is. And they're just as in danger of being afflicted by it.

"Still functional" is a riot. I hardly call auto-attacking and nothing else "functional". Like it or not, SMN can still cast white magic if they get Amnesia'd, which is, more often than not, precisely what they're invited for, even if they like to delude themselves into thinking it's not.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Aside from the inherent imbalance in trying to compare a status that can be cured by a stock medicine obtainable both with relatively low level Alchemy and from NPC vendors, not to mention by a healing spell and Healing Waltz, to a status which can only be removed by the enchantment on a Rare NM drop...

SMN has been largely forced by circumstance into a playstyle that relies on performing a chain of actions which always starts with a spell followed by a series of job abilities. No other job that I'm aware of requires a chain like this to be functional (though SCH comes closest due to heavy incentives to perform JAs before the casting of spells).

Also, with regard to the argument that all jobs are pretty thoroughly disabled when hit with Amnesia and Silence, I've never seen an imp use Abreafenive Tantra and inflict both statuses at once. Though they do tend to spam TP moves. Still, I've noticed that it's quite common for a given imp to use the same TP move over and over rather than alternating.

I think you can make an argument for Blood Pacts being a different and special sort of thing. Aside from flavor reasons, they are the only job abilities in the game I'm aware of that cost MP. That said, even if BPs were made immune to amnesia, it wouldn't fully solve the SMN's issue with completing the cycle, as they would still presumably be unable to dismiss their avatar.

I think if you were going to seriously consider an exemption to amnesia, it might make more sense from a game design standpoint to exempt all Pet Commands. That said, amnesia is clearly meant to suck. You might recall SE was afraid no one would want to fight mobs like that at all.

Finally, I don't think being reduced to auto-attack is 'non-functional' for a lot of jobs. NIN? Okay, sure. If they're actually trying to tank, anyway. But much of the meleeburn problem and why imps are attractive burn targets stems from the fact that pure autoattack is actually pretty damn strong for any melee job that puts out good DoT. Which is most of them. That gaining TP for WSs doesn't require any resting is just icing. If you had to rest for 100 MP to WS, WSing wouldn't be worth it. (I'm deliberately discounting being refreshed for 100 MP since I'm making a point about time costs.)

Edit: Also, for the sake of argument, the 'imbalance' here could also be remedied far less in SMN's favor by converting summoning pacts to JAs. "Call Avatar" anyone? (Technically this would carry a bunch of other consequences such as instant summoning and extra perp cost during the summon animation, but it would resolve the specific issue at hand.)

Edit 2: Also, some portions of this post are about as close as I hope I ever come to trolling. I don't have a position in this fight and am laughing at the 'argument' because it's the only way to avoid being crushingly disappointed by it. Reading further ahead, I don't think this is liable to go anywhere useful. I'm bowing out entirely now.

I do find it interesting, amusing, and kind of sad that someone actually removed my smiley when quoting me so that they could make it sound like they were disputing a totally serious suggestion, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

And why do people continue to conveniently deny that other jobs, like NIN, are similarly affected by both Amnesia and Silence? And they are always in range of AoE.

SMN can't use healing spells when they're Silenced? That's why all mages are expected to carry Echo Drops on them. SCH is no exception to this as it is just as required to position itself as SMN in this regard. I've made my case for why SCH is just as badly affected by Amnesia as SMN is. And they're just as in danger of being afflicted by it.

"Still functional" is a riot. I hardly call auto-attacking and nothing else "functional". Like it or not, SMN can still cast white magic if they get Amnesia'd, which is, more often than not, precisely what they're invited for, even if they like to delude themselves into thinking it's not.

Stop making sense!

By mentioning NIN and SCH, who have risk being in range of Silence and Amnesia to do what they do, you risk invalidating the only point people were trying to have, aside from the EXP target being totally optional to start with.

I mean, SCH's just toss out cures, right? They totally don't have to AOE buff both mages and melee. Accession Stoneskin/Phalanx totally isn't their trademark healer skill, no, they just stand outside of AoE and Cure! They never have to suffer like SMNs do by waltzing in between both sides

Have I broken sarcasm yet?

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Have I broken sarcasm yet?

You might have, if, for example, someone had said that SCHs only cure. Too bad you're making that bit up. It was a pretty impressive straw man though. Funnily enough you contradict yourself by aggreeing with Ketaru's statement that a SMN is still functional when Amnesia'd because it can still Cure, while pretending SCHs get castrated completely when they can't use stratagems.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You might have, if, for example, someone had said that SCHs only cure. Too bad you're making that bit up. It was a pretty impressive straw man though. Funnily enough you contradict yourself by aggreeing with Ketaru's statement that a SMN is still functional when Amnesia'd because it can still Cure, while pretending SCHs get castrated completely when they can't use stratagems.

The point - which you seem to want to miss - is that all jobs suffer the same way with Amnesia. SMN is not a special case. That is what I have been saying all along and also what Ketaru is saying.

SCH is a very easy way of disproving SMN's problem with Amnesia is somehow exclusive. They have to move to mid-range to buff everyone, they cannot fully backline to do their job effectively. They are very dependent on JAs to do what they do best. The role they will perform in a balanced or melee PT is not all that different from what a SMN would do, either.

Buff party with stoneskin, blink or phalanx, cast regen, cast cures. IN SCH's case I'd throw in a little weather magic and maybe a helix where applicable.

I should also mention that SCH, unlike SMN has to make a trade off and give up any damage potential they had to play full support - something SMN does not have to give up in job function, but party expectations. There's a way around that, too - make a Avatar burn.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

SMN has to use magic to call their avatars, and use abilities to command it. That's about as close to any argument that SMN has got it far worse than any other jobs vs imps. The point might be a little stronger if SMNs had to actually call their avatars within range, but so far, I haven't heard of any rants about how SMNs got it bad against Anticans because they are forced to summon in range of Jammer Wave. Surely they wouldn't cast out of range of it? That'd be too shrewd!

Kind of opposite of SCH actually. Best for me to do would be to use the ability out of range, then run in and start casting. At worst, I will get Silenced mid-cast. To me, looks like me and the SMN are both getting screwed!

Finally, I don't think being reduced to auto-attack is 'non-functional' for a lot of jobs. NIN? Okay, sure. If they're actually trying to tank, anyway. But much of the meleeburn problem and why imps are attractive burn targets stems from the fact that pure autoattack is actually pretty damn strong for any melee job that puts out good DoT.

For a job like DNC, it does render you non-functional for the healer or support role that parties will invite you for. For a job like THF, that depends on its abilities to keep up with other jobs, it is extremely crippling. For a job like BST or PUP, where a lot of the damage essentially comes from being able to command the pet because they don't have much in the way of damage dealing job traits or high attributes, what's left?

And unlike SMN, these jobs must always be in range in order to contribute what they do best for a party. Do I have to go through each and every job and point out which ones have it just as bad against Imps as SMN? Of course, they may get Duelwield or Double Attack from a subjob. But some here would have you think we're in a hypothetical subjobless universe.

We get it. Amnesia sucks for SMN. Amnesia sucks more for some jobs than some other jobs. SMN is pretty high in the list. But it hardly seems like it's alone up there. For the sake of ranking, the only jobs that seem low in that list, to me, are WHM and RDM since they can do what they do out of range at all times. Barspellras and Auspice notwithstanding...

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The point - which you seem to want to miss - is that all jobs suffer the same way with Amnesia.

No, the point, which you seem to want to miss, is that Summoner, especially with the call-dismiss style play that is dominant, gets the exact same royal screwing from BOTH Silence and Amnesia.

Dancers get just as screwed, but only by Amnesia. Silence is a non-issue.

Ninjas and /NINs are affected by either status ailment, but are still functional either way. If Amnesia'd, you still have your shadows to tide you over, and if you're Silenced and dumb enough to have not brought Echo Drops like every NIN or /NIN should, you can still hope to kill the Imp faster with your Abilities and Weapon Skills. Summoners, however, aren't just hindered by either ailment, they're completely disabled; they have nothing.

Even Scholars, which are about as close as any other job can get to how screwed Summoners can get in either situation, are only truly shut down in the face of Echo Drops-able Silence. Amnesia, while it does severely hamper their performance, doesn't disable them from casting spells at all, as opposed to Summoners who can't even do as much Dismiss the avatar they just freaking Summoned under the same effect.

In response to the "well, Summoner can still use spells from its sub" argument, congratulations! You just reduced Summoner back to the same MP/WHM problem it's been in for years and accomplished absolutely nothing! You're convincing nobody but yourselves by completely missing the point. I mean, seriously, the closest thing you have to an argument is "Amnesia sucks for everybody," to which I say, stop partying on imps.

Edit: Also, for the sake of argument, the 'imbalance' here could also be remedied far less in SMN's favor by converting summoning pacts to JAs. "Call Avatar" anyone? (Technically this would carry a bunch of other consequences such as instant summoning and extra perp cost during the summon animation, but it would resolve the specific issue at hand.)

While you make more sense than a couple of others here, I must object and say you have it really freaking backwards here.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

In response to the "well, Summoner can still use spells from its sub" argument, congratulations! You just reduced Summoner back to the same MP/WHM problem it's been in for years and accomplished absolutely nothing! You're convincing nobody but yourselves by completely missing the point. I mean, seriously, the closest thing you have to an argument is "Amnesia sucks for everybody," to which I say, stop partying on imps.

Like it or not, that's mostly what they're invited for. But hey, if you want to continue arguing as if FFXI is a subjobless universe...

If you call your avatar outside of Silence range, your avatar is out and that is that. You run in and get Silenced. Guess what, you can still finish the Blood Pact! Worse scenario, you run in and get Amnesia'd. You're still able to use magic! That was primarily what you were invited to do for the party. That hardly sounds disabling.

Here's how it goes with SCH. Rather than using magic to call an avatar outside of range, if you're shrewd, you use a strategem outside of Amnesia range. Run in and you get Amnesia. No problem, you've already prepped the ability and its now in effect, kind of like if you already have your avatar out, Silence will be inconsequential to the avatar, you can always Echo Drop it afterward. But wait! If the imp uses Silence...why...it almost might as well have been Amnesia! Because stratagems literally don't do anything if you're Silenced! I have to use my Echo Drop before I finish the intended effect.

What's the difference really?

Dancers get just as screwed, but only by Amnesia. Silence is a non-issue.

I'm also willing to bet they're at least twice as exposed to these status effects as SMN. And Amnesia cannot be cured except for that ring. Silence on the other hand...

While you make more sense than Dining Room Tables 1 and 2 over here, I must object and say you have it really freaking backwards here.

Hey whatever, if you want to resort to name calling, I'm more than happy to question just what you know, given your unabashed contempt of anything remotely high Level.

Go ahead. Go job for job why every job has it bad because of Amnesia, but nobody has it worse than SMN. And make sure you account for their typical placement in the battle. And don't forget to include the other pet jobs BST and PUP...just saying because people tend to forget them.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The point - which you seem to want to miss - is that all jobs suffer the same way with Amnesia. SMN is not a special case.

Right. Because the way Amnesia fucks a DNC is totally the same way Amnesia fucks a MNK.

Amnesia does the same thing to all jobs. That doesn't mean all jobs suffer the same. A MNK under Amnesia still does exactly what he always does - punch things to death. He may not be able to pop Focus, or Counterstance, or Raging Fists, but surely the Imp will continue to die a painful fist-related death.

And your "SCH = SMN" argument is flawed. It's obvious stratagems and arts are JAs. What else would they be? As has been brought up, Blood Pacts consume MP. If they didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.Why did SE make them JAs and not spells? Who knows for sure. It was probably just to control the recast timers. Surely it was more convenient to make a JA that consumes MP than to make a spell that ignores Fast Cast and Haste. Whatever the case, they consume MP on a job that is very much a mage does everything else with MP too. If SE wanted to consider BPs spells for the sake of Amnesia, it would just be a matter of excluding BPs from the list of things Amnesia prevents.

Never mind the fact that you're comparing one job which loses its JAs but retains most of its spellbook to the other being reduced to its sub because everything it does with its arcane, MP-leeching pets is technically a JA. SCH loses Stratagems? Yes. Does it hurt? Yes. But then again, your Stratagems don't cost MP, and while losing them is a setback, a SCH's abilities are not JUST their stratagems. It makes sense for SCH's stratagems to get blocked out AND it hurts them less.

P.S. Lol at the underlined statement, a pot calling a kettle black. Why did you even bother? Or is it only ignoring a point when someone other than you does it?

but so far, I haven't heard of any rants about how SMNs got it bad against Anticans because they are forced to summon in range of Jammer Wave. Surely they wouldn't cast out of range of it? That'd be too shrewd!

Ok I'll bite.
1) How many people TP burn on Antica?
2) The offending status ailment is Amnesia, not Silence. Do you see anyone lobbying for SMN to be immune to Silence? Of course not, that'd be silly. It's a mage job.

I'm also willing to bet they're at least twice as exposed to these status effects as SMN. And Amnesia cannot be cured except for that ring. Silence on the other hand...

Of course they are. DNC is not, and never will be, a mage. It gears for Accuracy and Store TP, it needs to melee to function, it uses TP for everything. It makes sense that DNC gets screwed by Amnesia. It's questionable for SMN. It's been said before. It gears for MP. It does everything with MP. When the avatar does something, the SMN needs MP to do it.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I would happen to think it would suck more not being able to dismiss an avatar that's out draining MP more than anything else.

But what the hell do I know, I burned my SMN from 37 to 75 in about six hours.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Ok I'll bite.
1) How many people TP burn on Antica?
2) The offending status ailment is Amnesia, not Silence. Do you see anyone lobbying for SMN to be immune to Silence? Of course not, that'd be silly. It's a mage job.

1) You missed the point. How many SMNs summon in range of mobs that are known to use AoE Silence?
2) The offending status ailment is Amnesia, yet people are arguing that SMN is the only job that is affected by both Silence and Amnesia. That's what we're arguing about here. It is not the only job that is crippled by both status effects. And it is hardly useless if it is affected by one or the other.

Of course they are. DNC is not, and never will be, a mage. It gears for Accuracy and Store TP, it needs to melee to function, it uses TP for everything. It makes sense that DNC gets screwed by Amnesia. It's questionable for SMN. It's been said before. It gears for MP. It does everything with MP. When the avatar does something, the SMN needs MP to do it.

Wait, so are you disagreeing or agreeing with me that DNC has it pretty lousy for Imps too? BLU is a mage, but they frontline and gear for melee, but their "attacks" are MP based. They have job abilities, but in a way, their job abilities also equally useless without the ability to cast magic. EDIT: Hold on, not "in a way". Looked up all of BLU's abilities. They are "most certainly" useless without the ability to cast magic.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

1) Mobs move you know. And Imps aren't the only mob with Amnesia. And we'll surely continue to get more and more mobs with Amnesia as time progresses. It started with CoP's final boss, then we got Imps, now half of WotG's unique fauna can Amnesia your ass.
2) Yes, we're bitching about SMN being crippled by both status ailments (which again is not the same as being affected by both, since SMN is the only job that has all its main job abilities blocked out by either one instead of needing both at the same time.) However, only one of them doesn't belong. I'll give you a hint - it's not Silence.

Wait, so are you disagreeing or agreeing with me that DNC has it pretty lousy for Imps too?

I'm agreeing that DNC has it pretty lousy on Imps - arguably lousier than SMN - but clarifying that there's absolutely no reason why DNC shouldn't be affected by Amnesia other than SE choosing the spare the job out of the kindness of their slow-updating hearts. This is not the case for SMN, as has been stated, which looks like a mage, plays like a mage, gears like a mage, and does everything (including BPs) with MP. As for BLU, BLU is a mage-melee hybrid. Arguably the only successful one in the game. DNC is wholly melee + JA-based, unlike BLU. And while BLU's JAs are useless during Amnesia, their spells are still in full swing (as they should be - they're spells.) BLU is arguably one of the least affected DDs simply because only a small part of their damage comes from WS, while a big chunk comes from their MP.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

1) Mobs move you know. And Imps aren't the only mob with Amnesia. And we'll surely continue to get more and more mobs with Amnesia as time progresses. It started with CoP's final boss, then we got Imps, now half of WotG's unique fauna can Amnesia your ass.
2) Yes, we're bitching about SMN being crippled by both status ailments (which again is not the same as being affected by both, since SMN is the only job that has all its main job abilities blocked out by either one instead of needing both at the same time.) However, only one of them doesn't belong. I'll give you a hint - it's not Silence.

1) No, I did not know mobs move. Every strategy of mine has always gone according to plan. This changes everything.
2) SMN "looks like a mage, plays like a mage, gears like a mage, and does everything (including BPs) with MP". But are we forgetting that it also calls an NPC like a pet job, directly commands an NPC like a pet job, and often plays alongside their NPC very much like a pet job? The fact that it is hampered very much in the way that the other pet jobs are is proof of that.

The only difference is that the other pet jobs can best salvage what they have left to use in the frontline through higher weapon skill levels, available main job traits, and whatever job traits their subjobs may give while under Amnesia.

SMN has MP so it can still do mage things under Amnesia, aided through their main job traits, innately high MP, and their subjob's spells and traits. They do have natural MP for a reason, and it was not to go as a job combo: SMN/some-job-that-doesn't-use-MP.

As for BPing with MP, a SMN can call an avatar, run towards the mob and get silenced, and they'd still be able to at least finish the intended BP effect. It is not being crippled by a typical mage limitation. Very much like how jobs are beginning to turn up that are working in ways people did not think of before: a job now main heals a party through expending TP, another one deals physical damage and even skillchains using MP. Why must Blood Pacts be considered spells just because they use MP when they are executed through an NPC? SMN is very much a pet job as much as it is a mage job. Is it really so surprising that Amnesia hits them exactly the same way it his other pet jobs? (DRG notwithstanding)

I went to my Promathea fight as BST because we were lacking in DDs. And sometimes I get fooled into joining jug burn parties at Caedarva Mire. Here are sudden limitations I face by being under Amnesia:
- Inability to command my pet to fight the next move if I get Amnesia'd at the end.
- Inability to use Reward or Stay to let my pet heal.
- Inability to call my pet back if I want it to stop fighting.
- Inability to command my pet to use abilities.
- Inability to Leave a charmed pet.
That's pretty disastrous for a pet-centric job.