Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Imagine a funguar spawns, six minutes pass and now Dark Spore and Silence Gas are ready to go when it gets 100 TP. Imagine a BST, going about charming them, TPing up those funguars, then releasing them around the camp. Mobs don't lose TP when they're released and I've had the unfortunate pleasure of finding that out upon charm wearing off or mischarming on a previously released mob. Many, many times.

Then why have I re-charmed a mob before it ready a move before but it still had it's TP reset?

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

With that in mind, why should SMNs be an exception? Oh sure, you could "Still be silenced," but echo drops are a cheap and easy way out of that. Every mage can get out of it with ease so long as they carry some. Amnesia only has a pricy way out that isn't practical for SMNs to macro in.

What you're proposing isn't "overdue," you're just not accepting that this is something that's meant to be frustrating.

Yes, because SE's foresight was so amazing that they knew they'd implement Amnesia 4 years after the creation of SMN. And because SMN is soooooo OP that out of all the mage jobs it's the most deserving of being cockblocked by not just silence, but a second status ailment too. That's why their invites have been historically through the roof, right?

Changing charmable mobs for BST would in effect be changing the mob's AI for everyone.

While we have no way of knowing, I don't see how or why. A pet's AI when charmed is different from when it's feral - I don't see BST pets using TP of their own accord and going every time they're at 100 TP when they dip into <25% HP. If they're not extending this patch to the charmed pets, I doubt it's "pre-emptive damage control." It's either too massive an undertaking or they don't want BSTs to get stronger at solo.

If I hit 5 times with a weapon then that's 5x10% chance that DA will fire compared to maybe 1 hit with a slow weapon where I have 1x10% chance of it going off. If this is incorrect then by all means let me know.

You won't find a weapon that hits 5 times as fast as another. Even if you did, the latter would hit 5 times as hard, so when it gets a DA proc its DA proc is also worth 5 of the faster weapon.

EDIT: Missed this.

NIN/WAR. DNC/NIN, RNG/NIN, COR/WHM, oh, and Scholar.

None of those jobs gets completely shut down by getting hit by one or the other. For instance, a DNC is screwed over by Amnesia specifically; Silence is of little concern. SMN's abilities get screwed by getting affected by either status ailment.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The BST update really should have been in there from the start.

People say this about literally every single update. They're game designers, not gods. Personally, I'd like for all jugs to last until killed or you zone, and I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't (given how hard to get they already are), but clearly SE disagrees.


Also, BBQ left out COR/NIN, and even more importantly, PLD/WAR, which is always in range (unlike SMN which damn well shouldn't be) from the list of jobs seriously affected by both silence and amnesia. A SMN is less affected by silence than a NIN/WAR who will need to cast a spell within the next few seconds or take major damage, and frequent amnesia and/or silence on the tank is precisely *why* hate control sucks in imp parties. (Defense, for all people love to bash it, keeps working when you're silenced and amnesia'd, not to mention stunned, petrified, or terrorized, but you can pretty easily lose control of hate when you can't use any of your hate-gaining abilities and spells.)

I wouldn't complain if SE made avatars immune to amnesia, but it's not like this is some uniquely awful thing about SMN -- it's a uniquely awful thing about imps, and there are already several jobs that would prefer to camp somewhere else. (I actually put "imps {No thanks.}" in my comment when I was leveling COR -- just in case some party leaders still actually bother to read those things.) Almost all mobs in the game can't inflict amnesia and not that many can inflict silence on a player a long way away without hate.

And, of course, the uniquely annoying things about imps (and colibri) are supposed to compensate for their pathetic stats. (Unfortunately they don't, which is why you can make such insanely broken exp on them. But SE apparently intended for those things to balance out.)

[Ziero]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It will be difficult to test Ifrit's Favor directly because DA is a hidden stat that procs randomly, but it would be much easier to test Carbuncle or Titan (defense appears directly on the equip screen and regen can be calculated by watching your HP) to get a general idea of what the initial buff strength is and how quickly it builds to the maximum.

It's not difficult at all, people do it all the time. You just need to run a parser. Test without DA for XX amount of time, test with DA for XX amount of time and compare the amount of times you swung. Everything in the parser is recorded automatically and all you have to do is look at the numbers.

Now Jug pets are forced to play by different rules while your average mob plays by the same rules as always. Changing charmable mobs for BST would in effect be changing the mob's AI for everyone.

Imagine a funguar spawns, six minutes pass and now Dark Spore and Silence Gas are ready to go when it gets 100 TP. Imagine a BST, going about charming them, TPing up those funguars, then releasing them around the camp. Mobs don't lose TP when they're released and I've had the unfortunate pleasure of finding that out upon charm wearing off or mischarming on a previously released mob. Many, many times.

So not giving the option to charmable mobs is probably pre-emptive damage control. We all know some BSTs have not been above finding ways to get other people killed. Darters in DA, Robbers at Bune? I rest my case. If a BST knows where a mob spawned, they could put a funguar right back where they found it pre-loaded with 300 TP. And we make it our business to know or we run out of even match pets, well, so long as someone isn't killing them anyway.

I thought mobs start losing TP as soon as they start regaining HP.

And I doubt the AI is all that different to program between a jug pet and a charmed pet, I'm sure it would be easy to change charmed pets to have selectable WSs just like Jug pets. This restriction seems to be based more on the job flavor then any kind of balance. Jug pets are more tamed and trained better, so they use the attacks you specifically choose. Charmed pets are wild and hard to control, so they use whatever attack they want. I doubt it goes further then that.

"Let's take the most hated mage class, and give it double the restrictions of every job! It'll be the only class entirely locked down by not one but two imp's abilities! I have great ideas!"

Sch and Pld get screwed pretty hard by imp abilities, and Dnc is rendered pretty much useless by just one Imp ability. And it's not like SE knew they would be adding in Imps near 7 years ago when they added Smn. If anything the Smn has a better chance of escaping the Imp's attacks then anyone else. They don't have to be on the front lines to fight nor do they really pull all that much hate.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Sch and Pld get screwed pretty hard by imp abilities, and Dnc is rendered pretty much useless by just one Imp ability.

But, again, none of those jobs gets COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN when they get hit by ANY OF THE TWO abilities. A DNC gets shut down with Amnesia, but not Silence. A SCH can get Amnesia'd and lose its ability to use Strategems and Arts, but at the very least can still cast; only Silence will truly shut down a SCH. SMN gets completely shut down with either ability, because Silence prevents them from re-summoning and Amnesia prevents issuing commands to the avatar (including, as I understand it, dismiss.)

And as an offensive PLD I laugh in the face of imps. With Amnesia I still have good DPS (hello Joytoy), Cures, Flash, Reprisal, and neutered DDs; with Silence I still have a shitload of JAs and good WS. They still annoy me, but the PLD comes out winning compared to the DDs.

And, of course, the uniquely annoying things about imps (and colibri) are supposed to compensate for their pathetic stats. (Unfortunately they don't, which is why you can make such insanely broken exp on them. But SE apparently intended for those things to balance out.)

I will concede that. But it still seems extremely awkward that a job that was designed to be purely magical by nature gets screwed by Amnesia, and as more and more mobs get added with Amnesia, it becomes more of an issue.

[Evion]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Armando: So....

1. 100 average damage x 100 swings (10,000) + 10 DA hits (1000)= 11,000 total in X time
2. 20 average damage x 500 swings (10,000) + 50 DA hits (1000)= 11,000 total in X time

Where X time is lowest common denominator between 1 and 2's swing vs speed. (actually made higher for the example to be easier to see...) Or, the amount of time it would take 1 to swing 100 times + 10 DA and the = time it would take 2 (that swings 5 times faster and 5 times less hard) to swing 500 times + 50 DA.

??? Right ???'

That's assuming that 2 DOES swing 5 times less hard. Otherwise it'd be blown. It could be that 2 can easily swing five times faster than 1. Would it be as easy for 1 to swing five times harder than 2 though? I imagine we're not taking into account WS right? TP gain over 500 swings vs 100...

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

That's assuming that 2 DOES swing 5 times less hard. Otherwise it'd be blown. It could be that 2 can easily swing five times faster than 1. Would it be as easy for 1 to swing five times harder than 2 though? I imagine we're not taking into account WS right? TP gain over 500 swings vs 100...

Taking the extreme weapon ends, you'll never find a weapon that swings significantly more than 3 times as fast as another. Even then, most DD weapons for a level range are very close in DPS and that's what it all boils down to. Two weapons with equal DPS benefit from DA equally. If their DPS is uneven then the higher DPS benefits more from DA because 10% to someone doing more damage is better than 10% to someone doing less damage. The higher DPS weapon could be faster, or could be slower. It doesn't matter.

As an example of how close DPS can be across different weapon types:
Lv.52 Tactician Magician's Espadon+1: 9.16 DPS
Lv.50 Cobra Unit Claymore: 9.33 DPS

CUC only has 2% more raw DPS than TMT+1

Anyways, the bottom line was that Delay doesn't matter AT ALL. It all boils down to who's doing more damage.

[Evion]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It would be easy to example 1 weapon vs 1 weapon for DPS/DA effects. Maybe you could use your math prowess to mock up a dual-wield vs 1 weapon example? (Which is basically what started this discussion you "missed") Also, some might not know how to calculate final delay and/or DPS after taking stats from both weapons in a dual-wield... Just saying, knock it out Armando.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Wow, I can't believe SE actually added an aura or blessing effect to avatars. And one of them is refresh? lol like wow... I wonder what forums they've been reading to get all the bitching from players at ......... lol It's not like SMN players have never "mentioned" this dream idea before or anything.

The update is good; better late than never. All this whining tho about "omfg it won't work /wrists!!!!!111" doesn't mean jack shyt until we know how it will operate exactly. And even if it does operate in a way that the aura/blessing disppears on Release or takes x amount of time to build up, its still a nice thing to have for a smn. I would have a smn in my pt anytime just for the buffs and spike dd, but this makes it even more nicer to play. of course, the real "winners" of ff will compare it to brd & cor and label it suckage since the herd mentality now after 7+ years is spoiled by 20k + an hour xp

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Wow, I can't believe SE actually added an aura or blessing effect to avatars. And one of them is refresh? lol like wow... I wonder what forums they've been reading to get all the bitching from players at ......... lol It's not like SMN players have never "mentioned" this dream idea before or anything.

Your typing is barely legible (are you sure you're not Jarre?), but if I interpreted this correctly as:

"Huh, I wonder from where S-E got this idea that all the forums are complaining about from? Oh, wait . . ."

then I am thanking you especially for it.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Wow, I can't believe SE actually added an aura or blessing effect to avatars. And one of them is refresh? lol like wow... I wonder what forums they've been reading to get all the bitching from players at ......... lol It's not like SMN players have never "mentioned" this dream idea before or anything.

The update is good; better late than never. All this whining tho about "omfg it won't work /wrists!!!!!111" doesn't mean jack shyt until we know how it will operate exactly. And even if it does operate in a way that the aura/blessing disppears on Release or takes x amount of time to build up, its still a nice thing to have for a smn. I would have a smn in my pt anytime just for the buffs and spike dd, but this makes it even more nicer to play. of course, the real "winners" of ff will compare it to brd & cor and label it suckage since the herd mentality now after 7+ years is spoiled by 20k + an hour xp

the "better late then never" argument is old now, this is a MMORPG, they evolve and change with every update, would it have been nice to have the game we do now, back in 03? yes, but is that logical or even rational to think that way? no -.-

To be honest SE most likely did not get the avatar blessing idea from "bitching players" they found a way to make keeping the avatar out, more worth wild, like they have been trying to do for a long time now.

[Ziero]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It would be easy to example 1 weapon vs 1 weapon for DPS/DA effects. Maybe you could use your math prowess to mock up a dual-wield vs 1 weapon example? (Which is basically what started this discussion you "missed") Also, some might not know how to calculate final delay and/or DPS after taking stats from both weapons in a dual-wield... Just saying, knock it out Armando.

You do realize there is a reason why most DW Wars(including Ridill users) changed to GAxe users right? You have just as many chances to DA on 100 swings while DW as you do to DA in 100 swings with a 2 hander. It's just the DW will reach 100 swings faster, it doesn't mean they'll do more damage over time.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It's not difficult at all, people do it all the time. You just need to run a parser. Test without DA for XX amount of time, test with DA for XX amount of time and compare the amount of times you swung. Everything in the parser is recorded automatically and all you have to do is look at the numbers.

Forgot to hit this earlier -- this doesn't exactly work. This is how you'd test a flat double attack rate. It doesn't tell us how quickly that double attack rate increases. If you had a SMN bring up Ifrit and parsed a thf swinging a hornetneedle for 3 minutes, you may test sayyyyy 20% double attack rate. But then you have to wonder "did we even get to the max?" Maybe it starts at 10% and increases by 10% every minute it's out to a maximum of 50% after 5 mins (yeah right. don't we wish).

There's really no easy way to test the double attack rate of continually varying potency effect. Ergo, Karinya's astute observation that we could at least use one of the easily measured effects (such as Titan's) to discern the rate of increase first as well as the cut-off point -- for all we know, these things may not reach full potency 'til 30 minutes out. Then, repeating the test with Carby's Regen, we could make sure the rates are the same between the 2 and therefore make a more reasonable assumption as to the rate of growth of all other auras.

Finally, a very grueling low-end double attack test (think summon -> 1-3 swings -> desummon -> repeat for about 400 swings) followed by an easy-enough high end test (better have really good -perp!) could give us a decent try at graphing the rate of double attack rate increase.

...
...

Not it!

[Solymir]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Thief would be a bad example to use, assuming the thief is level 55 or higher. God I love triple attack.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Sorry Evion, nothing personal but it's just too trivial (but the time taken to prove it isn't.)

Just know that the formula for your DoT, no WS included, boils down to this:
(DPS + fSTR/Delay) * (AveragePDIF + Crit%) * HitRate * DoubleAttack * Haste/DualWield/MultiHitWeapon/Etc...

If you don't know what some of that means, it's irrelevant. Just realize that the heart of that equation is the weapon's DPS as a whole, not its Delay or anything like that. Double Attack just serves as a straight up % multiplier. 10% is 10% no matter what. Now deriving THAT equation up there is something I could do. Maybe later, if there's demand something. I get the feeling most people don't really care where I pulled that from.

As for Dual Wield, all it does is boost your weapon's DPS by dropping the Delay.

You do realize there is a reason why most DW Wars(including Ridill users) changed to GAxe users right? You have just as many chances to DA on 100 swings while DW as you do to DA in 100 swings with a 2 hander. It's just the DW will reach 100 swings faster, it doesn't mean they'll do more damage over time.

I hope you realize the reason had nothing to do with this and everything to do with the 2-hander change.