Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[DakAttack]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Uh, why would you not be able to do actions with the avatar? You're already paying for the buff with perpetuation cost, inability to /heal and having to wait for the buff to go up in power.

Well, when you're channeling something you're usually not doing anything else. But, I would assume you could only activate something like this while the avatar is active, while the update says the exact opposite. So, there goes whatever I thought it was going to do out the window.

[Evion]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

smn, brd(cor), dnc, ddx3 could be quite interesting. The SMN will have to dismiss Ifrit for Garuda>Hastega every 3 minutes

(-DNC idea...) Exactly. SMN would be able to give Hastega and Double-attackega. I'd like to see a RDM pull that out of his sexy hat.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

(-DNC idea...) Exactly. SMN would be able to give Hastega and Double-attackega. I'd like to see a RDM pull that out of his sexy hat.

The problem is, depending on how the update works, that double attack buff would be lost the moment you dismiss Ifrit which means it would have to rebuild from scratch costing valuable MP. Unless of course, the buff stays active for a certain amount of time or what have you.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

If the double attack buff of Ifrit's is decently strong within a minute of use, then smn, brd(cor), dnc, ddx3 could be quite interesting. The SMN will have to dismiss Ifrit for Garuda>Hastega every 3 minutes, so this all depends on how slow the Blessings gain momentum.

The DNC gives you a good merit healer, potentially a 3rd source of haste if damage taken is low enough (Though I'd still rather have DD/sam + DNC running Drain samba 3 for something like 60 hp healed/swing on 2 handed jobs), a quick debuffer , and despite popular belief, every bit of DD helps.

If one of the DDs is a WAR, the COR can provide a pretty nice chunk of DA himself, too. If one is a SAM, Store TP (good for melees, even better for DNC). And of course the COR is also a semi-DD.

It will be difficult to test Ifrit's Favor directly because DA is a hidden stat that procs randomly, but it would be much easier to test Carbuncle or Titan (defense appears directly on the equip screen and regen can be calculated by watching your HP) to get a general idea of what the initial buff strength is and how quickly it builds to the maximum.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Entire thread is



So I'm just going to post what my initial response to this whole things was: even though this Summoner update isn't the whole "make Pacts in to Magic" thing I keep constantly harping about, I'm actually *giddy* that S-E is actually putting more effort in to the Summoner job itself than simply keeping the masses distracted from the job's actual problems with shiny promises of shinier avatars, as I have also constantly accused them of doing.

Of course, Blood Pacts being Magic is still something that's many years overdue. I never said that Avatar's Favor is going to fix any of the job's more basic or fundamental problems (well, except possibly how absurd perpetuation cost gets), just that I appreciate the fact that S-E is actually putting in more effort than just throwing more avatars at it.

Also, is it just me, or did S-E just say to Beastmasters "Here's yer dang selectable pet TP moves, now shut up, we haven't forgotten about you!"

[Firewind]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

The whole AoE buff thing is interesting though I'm not sure if I'm sure about what it's going to do to WHM's invite rates. We struggle enough as it is to get invites over RDMs, SCHs and SMNs as it is. I'm not calling it overpowered since it looks balanced enough and if anything it looks like a pure gimmick to keep the SMNs from lynching SE. My only worry is how it's going to effect my job's invite rate.

Though it may cause people to stop bitching and moaning at me when I'm trying to put together a party on PLD and don't want to wait for several hours for a BRD to turn up so that will be good at least.

The BST update really should have been in there from the start. Nice to see SE adding something that should have been in the game 8 years ago . I have lots of BST friends who will be pissed when they find out about this "update".

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

If one of the DDs is a WAR, the COR can provide a pretty nice chunk of DA himself, too. If one is a SAM, Store TP (good for melees, even better for DNC). And of course the COR is also a semi-DD.

I've found that Double Attack is best used for fast hitting weapons/dual wielders as there's a greater chance for DA to proc. While Store TP yields greatest returns on slow hitters such as Drg, Sam, GA/Polearm using Wars. Additionally, if the Cor has the relic headpiece there's roughly a 30% chance their rolls will act as if the pertinent job for the roll is in the party.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Of course, Blood Pacts being Magic is still something that's many years overdue. I never said that Avatar's Favor is going to fix any of the job's more basic or fundamental problems (well, except possibly how absurd perpetuation cost gets), just that I appreciate the fact that S-E is actually putting in more effort than just throwing more avatars at it.

See, there's a problem with this. You just want Pacts not to fail at all, but you're wanting this in the face of jobs that have JAs that have the same exact restrictions. RNGs can use Barrage and miss - that's frustrating. PLDs can get chainspelled to death during Invincibole, NINs can lose an entire pouch of tools or DRG, PUP and BST can lose items and entire recasts to paralyze. Every melee loses TP to charm or a WS when some idiot mage pulls hate the mob suddenly moves

With that in mind, why should SMNs be an exception? Oh sure, you could "Still be silenced," but echo drops are a cheap and easy way out of that. Every mage can get out of it with ease so long as they carry some. Amnesia only has a pricy way out that isn't practical for SMNs to macro in.


What you're proposing isn't "overdue," you're just not accepting that this is something that's meant to be frustrating.

GMs never gave me back that Steel Bullet pouch I lost to paralyze and that's 15k right there, so I'm going to chalk this up to "functioning as intended."

Also, is it just me, or did S-E just say to Beastmasters "Here's yer dang selectable pet TP moves, now shut up, we haven't forgotten about you!"

Changing the conditions to how jug pets function - from functioning like a normal mob to something more BST-specific - is a rather complicated task. People are saying they should have done it with charmable mobs, too, but think about it - before this update, the AI for a jog pet and the AI for a mob of the same family aren't terribly different.

Now Jug pets are forced to play by different rules while your average mob plays by the same rules as always. Changing charmable mobs for BST would in effect be changing the mob's AI for everyone.

Imagine a funguar spawns, six minutes pass and now Dark Spore and Silence Gas are ready to go when it gets 100 TP. Imagine a BST, going about charming them, TPing up those funguars, then releasing them around the camp. Mobs don't lose TP when they're released and I've had the unfortunate pleasure of finding that out upon charm wearing off or mischarming on a previously released mob. Many, many times.

So not giving the option to charmable mobs is probably pre-emptive damage control. We all know some BSTs have not been above finding ways to get other people killed. Darters in DA, Robbers at Bune? I rest my case. If a BST knows where a mob spawned, they could put a funguar right back where they found it pre-loaded with 300 TP. And we make it our business to know or we run out of even match pets, well, so long as someone isn't killing them anyway.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I have lots of BST friends who will be pissed when they find out about this "update".

No quotes about it. S-E finally found a way to implement this w/out it going overboard and being absolute. Not to mention, it's entirely tweak-able. This is an update and a good start. Way to look a Gift Crab in the Pincer or something... cheesily related to BST...

I've found that Double Attack is best used for fast hitting weapons/dual wielders as there's a greater chance for DA to proc. While Store TP yields greatest returns on slow hitters such as Drg, Sam, GA/Polearm using Wars.

Double Attack is a flat, linear, percent increase in performance. 5% double attack is +5% damage, regardless of delay. It affects all (not multi-hit) weapons equally. However, it's true that Store TP helps 2 handed DD more than 1 handers usually unless they're DNC or /DNC. The ability to use tp in amounts lower than 100 theoretically makes store TP just as useful to any job. Particularly in the size of values a Corsair throws around.

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------

With that in mind, why should SMNs be an exception? Oh sure, you could "Still be silenced," but echo drops are a cheap and easy way out of that. Every mage can get out of it with ease so long as they carry some. Amnesia only has a pricy way out that isn't practical for SMNs to macro in.


What you're proposing isn't "overdue," you're just not accepting that this is something that's meant to be frustrating.

I apologize sir, but BULL SHIT.

"Let's take the most hated mage class, and give it double the restrictions of every job! It'll be the only class entirely locked down by not one but two imp's abilities! I have great ideas!"

[Balfree]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Teaching summoners to lern2play their job? :|

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

"Let's take the most hated mage class, and give it double the restrictions of every job! It'll be the only class entirely locked down by not one but two imp's abilities! I have great ideas!"

NIN/WAR. DNC/NIN, RNG/NIN, COR/WHM, oh, and Scholar. Actually a lot more than that, but those four deal with the issue way more than SMN ever will. For all of the above, Echo Drops solve half the problem and somehow, they all manage. Two of them are just as likely to see an invite as a SMN. Three if you want to talk merit level.

And seriously, who the hell does imps anymore? Apparently SMNs that take any healer invite.

Then again, I've noticed many Astral Burns go after IMPS. Rocket scientists, those SMNs.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Double Attack is a flat, linear, percent increase in performance. 5% double attack is +5% damage, regardless of delay. It affects all (not multi-hit) weapons equally. However, it's true that Store TP helps 2 handed DD more than 1 handers usually unless they're DNC or /DNC. The ability to use tp in amounts lower than 100 theoretically makes store TP just as useful to any job. Particularly in the size of values a Corsair throws around.

This. I don't know why it is so incredibly hard for people to wrap their minds around the basic functioning of DPS and DW. I run into so many people who honestly seem to believe that they're doing twice as much damage because of dual-wielding. Or that more frequent hits gives some kind of decisive advantage even at the same DPS. That a lower delay weapon will always mean 'better' TP gain even if you're nowhere near where the TP return curve shifts. Or for that matter that accuracy is more or less important depending on your delay in a long-term DoT sense.

Seriously, do the math. Or more to the point, do the algebra. You don't need to know what x is to know that 2(x + 0.01x) = 2x + 0.02x.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I apologize sir, but BULL SHIT.

"Let's take the most hated mage class, and give it double the restrictions of every job! It'll be the only class entirely locked down by not one but two imp's abilities! I have great ideas!"

soooo..... why are SMN in the range of the imp in the first place?

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Because the average tank nowadays is shitty.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Double Attack is a flat, linear, percent increase in performance. 5% double attack is +5% damage, regardless of delay. It affects all (not multi-hit) weapons equally.

The way I've always understood it is you have a 10% chance for DA to proc per weapon swing if you are war or /war. Fighter's Roll and equipment can increase that percentage. Therefore, the more times you attack in a set timeframe the greater the chance of receiving DA procs. If I hit 5 times with a weapon then that's 5x10% chance that DA will fire compared to maybe 1 hit with a slow weapon where I have 1x10% chance of it going off. If this is incorrect then by all means let me know.