Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[wrongfeifong]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Stop thinking SMN can fit in a Mana burn. Hell no they won't fit in a mana burn. Never and Never will.
If i have to put a Cor + SMn over a puller + another BLM or 2 BLM. the party have a higher chance to wipe just for 11mp tick.

As of now, most Mana burn can already achieve constant chains without the need of these "mp/tick", having a RDM or brd in a BLM mana burn is simply a dead weight. I rather just get 1 more BLM increase the dmg less the chance of a dmg reduce.

On a side notes:
Those SMN ability are still pretty useless for exp party, they might more be a bonus for endgame or other type of party. Who is going to invite a SMN to a xp party just for those buff anyway? If it is Acc+ or atk+ then that's another story.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

... I havent read up on Schs abilities. But isnt that casted on a single person? And it just gives them the element weakness/resistance. Not stat bonuses?

What Iw as taling about everyone gains stat boosts over time with the summon out and it only goes away when the summon is un summoned.

Stormsurge is the merit trait that adds base stats to SCH's storm spells to a mzx of 7 on full merits with the exception of Voidstorm, which adds +3 to all base stats. Storm magic can be spread to the entire PT with Accession.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Those SMN ability are still pretty useless for exp party, they might more be a bonus for endgame or other type of party. Who is going to invite a SMN to a xp party just for those buff anyway? If it is Acc+ or atk+ then that's another story.

You do realize that Double Attack beats raw Attack in parties that don't suck, right? You realize that sometimes you can't find someone to Refresh, right?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Stop thinking SMN can fit in a Mana burn. Hell no they won't fit in a mana burn. Never and Never will.
If i have to put a Cor + SMn over a puller + another BLM or 2 BLM. the party have a higher chance to wipe just for 11mp tick.

Good manaburn PT isn't about the number of BLMs, but speedy recovery and quick claims. Not all BLMs can handle that on their own, either. Even the most tricked out BLM can't keep up with an average SCH's mana endurance or stun every target the moment its seen.

As of now, most Mana burn can already achieve constant chains without the need of these "mp/tick", having a RDM or brd in a BLM mana burn is simply a dead weight. I rather just get 1 more BLM increase the dmg less the chance of a dmg reduce.

More damage doesn't do shit for manaburn, considering what BLMs tend to target is at a severe disadvantage when it comes to magic resistance. I mean, you don't seriously give stuff like MAB buffs to these parties, do you? Only SCH should really even bother with that via storm spells, which is a simple task.

You'd turn down a COR + SMN, which would lead to: Potential 5 MP a tick from COR+SMN, 3 MP a tick from SMN Diabolos, then factor in Sanction and Clocks for a potential of 10 MP per tick? That on top of Corsair's Roll. You'd really just rather have BLMx6?

Mmmkay.

On a side notes:
Those SMN ability are still pretty useless for exp party, they might more be a bonus for endgame or other type of party. Who is going to invite a SMN to a xp party just for those buff anyway? If it is Acc+ or atk+ then that's another story.

So you never use Fighter's Roll ever? You do realize most players cover accuracy well enough on thier own, right? That's not really even what BRD and COR are wanted for. They're wanted for Attack, Haste, Double Attack, Store TP, Refresh and Crit rate

SMN just became the other best frontline refresher in the game next to DNC or a /DNC user, which is something PLD, DRK and BLU are certain to appreciate, not to mention other mages in the PT.

This also eases things up for COR, BRD and RDM. If the range of the buffs are good enough, it could either allow parties to gain more MP back or afford RDM and COR other options besides cycling refresh in and out. SCHs won't have to use Sublimation with a SMN around

DNC+COR+SMN could be insane for DA-hungry melees, too.

I think you're living inside the box here. Not that I'm surprised by that.

[Jonastb]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I am honestly not impressed with the BST update. It takes 6 minutes from the time you call the pet to get to full power. You get 1 free random Sic, after that, it becomes Ready. It is very possible that the first 4 choices are useless depending on what mob you are fighting, and what pet you have. I know this takes some of the randomness out of it, but I think it is too great a cost. With the exception of Amigo and 1k needles, there is no ability that you should have a 6 minute turn around time on.

Also, you need to factor in how long the various pets stay out. If you have a 30 min pet, you might get 5 "Ready"s.

It takes 2 minutes for each charge. You use all 3 and you start all over again. I always thought the sic timer was too long as it was, this just makes it longer.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Limitations of Favor:

* Can't rest and provide buff effect at the same time
* Can't Elemental Siphon without dismissing and thus resetting to minimum buff strength
* Can't use BPs of any other avatar without dismissing
* Have to pay perp cost the whole time the buff is building up (although they do say it's reduced)

If on top of that it takes several minutes to reach the level of a lucky COR roll, I don't see this as being either earth shattering or a threat to COR's role in a party. COR and BRD not only have two buff slots, they can also move around and buff different people differently and their buffs don't have any MP cost or warm-up time to reach full strength.

On top of that they seem to be promising stacking with spells, rolls and songs, so you could get Ifrit's Favor and Fighter's Roll at the same time, or Diabolos's Favor and Refresh/Sublimation. So even if you have one, you'd still want the other (up to the point where you need more people to *receive* the buffs instead).


This is all in addition to what SMN has now, so it can't help but improve it in some way. For SMNs that follow the current dominant playstyle, the party would only get a few seconds of weak buffs occasionally while you save a few MP on a few perp ticks, but even that is better than nothing, and if there are some new tactics possible, you could use those too.


P.S. Keeping the same avatar out for long periods of time will also effectively increase the benefit SMNs have from having a SCH in party who can activate their weather latent -perp gear (while, at the same time, the SCH could also benefit from the presence of Shiva, Leviathan, or Diabolos).

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It is very possible that the first 4 choices are useless depending on what mob you are fighting, and what pet you have. I know this takes some of the randomness out of it, but I think it is too great a cost.

Even in the worst case in which you're hellbent on using a 3 charge TP move over and over, it's still better than Sic. Using Dark Spore every 6 minutes with maxed TP is better than using Sic three times but only having a 1/7 chance of getting Dark Spore. And there might be a weaker, 1 charge move that done three times does more damage than a 3 charge move, as is often the case in the WS world. Being able to do that with consistency sure as hell beats pulling a random move.

It's all about probabilities, and the odds of getting the move you want at random are often quite shitty. Good ol' CourierCarrie has 5 TP moves to choose from, and odds are you're not looking for Bubble Shower, Bubble Curtain, or Scissor Guard.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Even in the worst case in which you're hellbent on using a 3 charge TP move over and over, it's still better than Sic. Using Dark Spore every 6 minutes with maxed TP is better than using Sic three times but only having a 1/7 chance of getting Dark Spore. And there might be a weaker, 1 charge move that done three times does more damage than a 3 charge move, as is often the case in the WS world. Being able to do that with consistency sure as hell beats pulling a random move.

It's all about probabilities, and the odds of getting the move you want at random are often quite shitty. Good ol' CourierCarrie has 5 TP moves to choose from, and odds are you're not looking for Bubble Shower, Bubble Curtain, or Scissor Guard.

YES! Somebody gets it! I'm looking over opinions about the update on Allakhazam, and it makes me feel overwhelmingly:

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

YES! Somebody gets it! I'm looking over opinions about the update on Allakhazam, and it makes me feel overwhelmingly:

that's because most people are stupid ;p and read about an update, then take the first thing that comes out of their head, and bitch about it, and moan for hours... instead of reading the update again, to get a clearer idea of what the update really is. So people are acting like these updates are making the jobs worse, or not changing them at all, and these are the same people that bitch ever time they don't get an update they want ^>^

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Not only that, but these people also think that what it says on paper is how it will actually play, which is almost fucking never the actual case. How many times have they given us some update note, we've all thought it was one thing, then it turns out to be completely different?

Wait until we see how it works and the math geek people figure out all the numbers and whatnot, then you can tell me if it sucks.

Though really, no one cares at all about MMM, SE.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

SMN may or may not be a good idea for manaburns, but I can tell you right now the new format for BLM parties @ events will be BLM BLM BLM SMN COR (maybe swap 1 BLM out for BRD or WHM but unlikely)


SMN Bonus to Evoker's + Diabolos or Shiva boosting the BLM's = epic win. Nirvana just got even better (not that it needed it).

>.> I'm expecting a price hike on the Fay Crozier (sp?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Limitations of Favor:

* Can't rest and provide buff effect at the same time
* Can't Elemental Siphon without dismissing and thus resetting to minimum buff strength
* Can't use BPs of any other avatar without dismissing
* Have to pay perp cost the whole time the buff is building up (although they do say it's reduced)

If on top of that it takes several minutes to reach the level of a lucky COR roll, I don't see this as being either earth shattering or a threat to COR's role in a party. COR and BRD not only have two buff slots, they can also move around and buff different people differently and their buffs don't have any MP cost or warm-up time to reach full strength.

I think you're misunderstanding me by my initial reaction (which came under some sleep deprivation), SMN hitting something equal to Lucky on a COR is fine, as 11 is better than lucky. That's not an issue for me, I do think it reinforces the /WHM issue with SMN though. If perputation costs are low with this ability, resting with another refresher present probably won't be as much of a concern for SMN as it used to be.

You're also overstating COR's buff "flexibility." If it were as simple as how BRD overwrites buffs, then /WHM wouldn't be the shitty subjob it is for COR and CORs wouldn't be morons for subbing it in EXP. Yeah, we can put up two buffs at a time for everyone, but can never retain the benefits of the ones that might be useful to us for longer than a minute, even if we skew it down to a three buff cycle, which isn't acceptable anywhere but a really good merit PT or low man situation.

Not that i have envy of BRD/WHM, as COR/DNC is the perfect solution to ridding the job of reliance on MP and MP gear in EXP situations. Even so, the way Phantom Roll works limits us from drawing as much benefit from our buffs as our allies would. SMN and BRD not really being as viable for melee, that's not so much of an issue for them.

SMN could stand to get away with just whoring out Diabolos, though. especially in MP driven PT.

P.S. Keeping the same avatar out for long periods of time will also effectively increase the benefit SMNs have from having a SCH in party who can activate their weather latent -perp gear (while, at the same time, the SCH could also benefit from the presence of Shiva, Leviathan, or Diabolos).

Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation, remember? Just means I go without to fix that. SMN's refresh could be tagged as a differen't buff, otherwise we get another job that directly conflicts with RDM refresh. That might be a favor to RDM more than a drawback, though.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Ifrit's Bow - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Ifrit's Bow - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

Yes totally awesome... for RDM/RNG. BST, too... if it had archery skill.

I'll stick to my Vali's Bow

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You're also overstating COR's buff "flexibility." If it were as simple as how BRD overwrites buffs, then /WHM wouldn't be the shitty subjob it is for COR and CORs wouldn't be morons for subbing it in EXP. Yeah, we can put up two buffs at a time for everyone, but can never retain the benefits of the ones that might be useful to us for longer than a minute, even if we skew it down to a three buff cycle, which isn't acceptable anywhere but a really good merit PT or low man situation.

Well, my main point is that SMN can't put different Favor buffs on different members *at all*, and mixing Favor with BP buffs is going to be tricky if they come from different avatars. Diabolos's Favor for the back line and Ifrit's Favor for the front line is just plain impossible for 1 SMN, never mind the possibility of having the wrong buff on yourself part of the time while you're setting it up or taking too much time running back and forth or being unable to split rolls/songs because of bad party formation/cramped camp/etc.

Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation, remember? Just means I go without to fix that. SMN's refresh could be tagged as a differen't buff, otherwise we get another job that directly conflicts with RDM refresh. That might be a favor to RDM more than a drawback, though.

The update preview stated that Favor effects would stack with spells, rolls, and songs. That seems to me to imply Diabolos's Favor is considered a different effect from Refresh, which probably also means it would stack with Sublimation (it would be awfully strange for Sublimation to not stack with two different things that *do* stack with each other).

I don't expect Diabolos's Favor to see all that much use outside manaburns or event BLM parties, though. Base perp cost for Diabolos at 75 is 13/tick; you can certainly bring that down some with gear, but if you end up paying 6/tick for let's say two other MP users in party to gain 2/tick each (for the first minute), that's not a very good deal, especially when you could be resting or using Elemental Siphon or applying non-Diabolos BPs. (The permanent weather in Dynamis and Apollyon -- or the on-demand weather of a SCH -- will let you improve on that if you have relic hat, though.)

It could start higher than that, or you could get your effective perp cost lower when counting the Favor effect on you to offset it (or using Sublimation, in which case you couldn't be resting without applying Earthen Ward first anyway), but it looks to me like you'll probably need a lot of MP users for Diabolos's Favor to be a net benefit, even if it stacks with everything.

What you normally have a lot of in a party is physical DDs, so I predict Ifrit will see the most use.