Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You can claim to win any argument when you define unreasonable terms of success.

How is that an unreasonable term of success? Either SMN is screwed by either tantara or its not. Either BBQ agrees with that statement or he doesn't. He could address that point, but he likes to dance around it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You can claim to win any argument when you define unreasonable terms of success.

Why the fuck should the way ONE MOB performs be the basis for reforming an entire job? You think that, perhaps, SMNs are NOT INTENDED TO FIGHT THAT MOB? That there are some mobs that some jobs simply should not be made to combat? That crippling the job may be INTENTIONAL?

What's that have to do with anything? At this point, I don't want to argue whether or not it should be changed. I'm looking at a fact and people are saying my fact is wrong because you keep trying to insert meaning into my words.

Also, the crippling of the job: not intentional. See Armando argument: SMN design was how it was before Amnesia was introduced. i.e. you're an idiot.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You can claim to win any argument when you define unreasonable terms of success.

Why the fuck should the way ONE MOB performs be the basis for reforming an entire job? You think that, perhaps, SMNs are NOT INTENDED TO FIGHT THAT MOB? That there are some mobs that some jobs simply should not be made to combat? That crippling the job may be INTENTIONAL?

This was something people were hitting on from the start, but it apparently never sunk in.

When did anyone ever bring a RNG to a bone PT?
How smart is a BST that targets nothing but Slimes for pets and then fights slimes with them?
Do BLMs target anything that's going to be able to rush at or silence them?
Would SAM or, hell, just anyone even deal with a mob that wipes TP outside of Campaign?

The whole reason imps and colibri are so popular - as well as those crabs before them - is because what they do is less annoying and threatening than anything else. This is what the community - not SE - decided the EXP trend would be. I can't hold SE accountable for the decisions players make.

Things being popular, however, doesn't mean one job is screwed.

Even back when crabs were the thing to do, there were bird camps. Valley of Sorrows and Bibiki Bay spring to mind. DRGs with initiative formed PTs and went out to them.

Only when you narrow your scope to what's popular and only when you ahere to that is when jobs become "screwed." And really, you're screwing yourselves and no one else.

I've been able to persuade people to go to Castle Ostroja (S), I've trioed and soloed in Site Riverne #A01, people actually tried it after I posted my experience and now some BSTs actually go there for merits and make better use of the camp than I ever did. Attowah Chasm is more than just soloing some worms, that place is great of parties and soloists alike.

So don't tell me about how the beaten path is the only way. Don't tell me that one job should be an exception to being restricted by certain ailments - I've played jobs with larger uphill battles than SMN ever had to deal with.

Also, the crippling of the job: not intentional. See Armando argument: SMN design was how it was before Amnesia was introduced. i.e. you're an idiot.

This is the dumbest shit I have ever read from either of you. And that's saying something because I've never read dumb shit from either of you before.

All status ailments are intended to cripple somebody. Otherwise, what the fuck is enfeebling for? Ze Germans?

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Congratulations on once again dodging the question while making a post that's twice as long as it needs to be. Here, let me give you a hand.

Until you address the above (and when I say address, I mean you have exactly two choices: agree or give me evidence that says those exact words are incorrect), you're simply spinning wheels.

Or was that not clear enough? Your posts are consistently aggravatingly long while never really addressing the issues the person on the other side of the debate is bringing up. If you want to keep dodging the question (for god knows what reason - if you're right, you shouldn't have to) for another 5 pages let us know so we can bail out and let you have the final word instead of continuing this circular argument.

This is the dumbest shit I have ever read from either of you. And that's saying something because I've never read dumb shit from either of you before.

Must feel great to think your opinions are infallible.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Your posts are consistently aggravatingly long while never really addressing the issues the person on the other side of the debate is bringing up.

I asked the critical question first, best answer that was ever given is "SMN is fucked 100% of the time" and that's not even an answer at all because there's no reasoning behind it. I had to establish that reason - "Slience seals off access to MP, Amnesia seals off Pet commands, some of which consume MP."

But in truth, SMN is hindered by one, not two status ailments from an imp. Just Amnesia if we're only going to look at it from the main job. Everyone can and does get out of Silence with ease, so SMN doesn't have a leg to stand on about Silence. Can we at least agree on that? No good mage is ever without echo drops.

That just leaves Amnesia, which is avoidable and a minor annoyance at best from imps. Its far more threatening from NMs and Promathia was the first ever to even have the effect. Several ToA, WotG and add-on chapter mobs have since inflicted it as well.

If we make SMN the exception for imps, though, we make SMN the exception for a total of eighteen mobs/NMs. That's where the slippery slope begins, just look:

Amnesia - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

Now, i'm sorry if that wasn't concise enough for you, but I think it had all the substance we've been trying to communicate to you, only to be ignored countless times. It even conforms to the desired talking points. No job can be a special exception to such a dramatic degree, nor should one be. Some mobs need to be threatening, NMs especially.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

But in truth, SMN is hindered by one, not two status ailments from an imp.

Bullshit.

The existence of Echo Drops does not change the fact that either effect will hinder a summoner.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

How is that an unreasonable term of success? Either SMN is screwed by either tantara or its not.

It's unreasonable because "screwed" isn't well-defined. It's redefined as many times as necessary to prove that SMN is "screwed" and other jobs are not "screwed".

That's why this whole thread has consisted mostly of otherwise intelligent people repeating themselves louder and louder. We're just talking past each other because of refusal to agree on the terms of discourse.

IMO it's absurd to deny that curing is being "functional" when most parties can't function without it. (Almost as absurd as assuming advanced jobs aren't designed with subjobs in mind.) But if someone wants to call that "not functioning as a SMN" or whatever else they want to make up, I can't stop them. It just seems like a waste of time to argue about it.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

How is that an unreasonable term of success? Either SMN is screwed by either tantara or its not.

You're providing a perfect example. Yes, either SMN is 'screwed' by this, and thus he wins, or the person is forced to post a blatant lie talking about how it doesn't matter at all, which he also wins. Again, it's a false victory based upon unreasonable terms of success.

The real question isn't whether this presents a problem FOR SUMMONERS, it's whether this presents a problem FOR GAME BALANCE. Whether this ability to screw over summoners represents some flaw in the mob, the job, the game's mechanics, or something else. The real argument to be made here isn't that Imps fuck up summoners more than other jobs. Let's all just agree they do, and drop it.

The real argument is why the fuck should we care that Imps are harder for SMNs than other job classes. Should we honestly consider redesigning the mob, job, or game to correct this? Or is it a problem with THE WAY THAT PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME, and not a problem with the game itself?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

It's unreasonable because "screwed" isn't well-defined. It's redefined as many times as necessary to prove that SMN is "screwed" and other jobs are not "screwed".

What's sad is I had to define "screwed" for them.

Just look at Cidbahamut's post. Echo drops are "irrelevant." Its as if the clear travesty is that Silence and Amnesia even dared to affect SMN in the first place. I say if Silence is the one you have to worry about, that's pretty damn relevant. If Amnesia, walk it off/grin and bear it.

And as Feba points out, we bring up game/job balance and you guys scurry your way to "SMN Job mechanics" like that's not part of the scope of the game.

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Echo drops are "irrelevantt,"

Attacking typos this late in the game is a sign of desperation and little else.

So

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Urban Dictionary: big dick fight

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Urban Dictionary: big dick fight

Feba beat you to it.

Also, Feba, that was my typo

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Urban Dictionary: big dick fight

I'll take "Things that Aks Would Like to See" for 1000, Alex.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I don't come that cheap, Aks o.o

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

IMO it's absurd to deny that curing is being "functional" when most parties can't function without it. (Almost as absurd as assuming advanced jobs aren't designed with subjobs in mind.) But if someone wants to call that "not functioning as a SMN" or whatever else they want to make up, I can't stop them. It just seems like a waste of time to argue about it.

I thought I wouldn't respond anymore to this post because this is exactly what I've been saying, but people continue to refuse to bring subjobs to the table simply for the sake of argument about SMN because once you bring its ability to Cure to the table, it's plainly obvious that Amnesia does not shut down SMN from what it is overwhelmingly asked to do for parties.

Tell me what you think of this exchange:

Person 1: Scholar is great. It can take Red Mage derived spells that were previously self-target, and turn them into party spells that everybody can benefit from.
Person 2: Nuh uh, you can't bring that into the discussion about Scholar because Enspells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, and Blink (feel free to add if I missed any) are not spells that are inherent to Scholar. You need to sub Red Mage to get those.

That's absurd, right? Why wouldn't we include subjobs into a discussion about the pros and cons about a job? Anybody with even rudimentary knowledge of the update history of this game knows that subjobs have always been an integral part of any discussion about job mechanics.

For years, White Mages have been quick to point out that any job can sub White Mage and suddenly have access to most of their key spells. Lo and behold, they now have stances and new spells like Auspice. Ninjas have long complained that a Paladin subbing Ninja outclasses them, leading to a recent enmity manipulation update for Ninja. Beastmasters felt that any decent, well-rounded job can beat them at their own game while subbing Beastmaster. Now look what we've been getting- updates that only affect jug pets. Thieves have SATA Dancing Edge; big deal, Samurai subbing Thief has SATA Tachi:Asskick. So where are all these job abilities that steal enmity beginning to come from? They're to differentiate Thief from other jobs.

And the fact that Summoner has the innate resource to make use of subjobs (innate MP, MP restoring abilities and traits, not to mention all sorts of gear that improves skills and attributes if /SCH tickles your fancy), like White Mage or Scholar, to greater effect than even a Bard or Corsair can is a boon to the job, not some sort of shameful secret. Because subjobs are so quintessential to any discussion about job mechanics in Final Fantasy XI that, once you remove subjobs even for the sake of argument, you're not even talking about Final Fantasy XI anymore.