Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I'm gonna throw my two cents in.

1. Summoner's subjob is irrelevant to any discussion of its design flaws, because at that point you're just discussing the design of the subjob rather than Summoner.

2. Just because Echo Drops are a really easy workaround doesn't mean there isn't a design flaw

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Also again, it's stupid that Summoner, which is supposed to be a mage, gets so excessively screwed over by both Amnesia and Silence. Why do you not find that stupid? And please answer in a way that lacks spite or bile.

P
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Dining Table #3

1. Summoner's subjob is irrelevant to any discussion of its design flaws, because at that point you're just discussing the design of the subjob rather than Summoner.

On the other hand, SMN has an innate resource (3 in fact: high MP, Autorefresh Elemental Siphon), that allows them to use certain subjobs better than jobs that don't have that resource. Would a BRD/WHM be just as good at main healing as a SMN/WHM? Subjobs are not, and they never will be, irrelevant to a discussion. That subjobs is directly tied to exactly what SMN is invited to do for parties.

How about:

Don't fucking fight imps in the first goddamn place!

Some would have you think that imps are the benchmark mobs in the game of which every job is held to the standard. I want to go back to using Colibri personally. At least they were Everybody-Friendly. Nobody hates 'em. And they're accessible at much more level ranges. Me? I just love to argue, even if using one mob as a benchmark is completely blowing it out of proportion.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

So many bad arguments over the past page, I don't see it worth the effort to continue. It's just going to be forever arguing in circles with brick walls, anyway.





I do want to clear up one thing, though: BBQ, the "due" thing wasn't an attack, it was just a peeve.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

So many bad arguments over the past page, I don't see it worth the effort to continue. It's just going to be forever arguing in circles with brick walls, anyway.

You haven't posted a single good argument yet. You've just quoted things that don't consider context over and over. Go ahead, tell me SMN isn't a pet job and doesn't at all play like a pet job, and so shouldn't be subject to the same pains of other pet jobs.

EDIT:
Gotta add to my list of why BST and Amnesia don't mix:
- Inability to use Snarl. Cause damn, being am MP sponge sucks balls.
That's so much utility I've lost because of Amnesia, it's not even funny. At least some other jobs still have MP utility to fall back on...

This is much do to the fact
due

[Feba]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

if you guys don't stop bitching about imps, SE is going to take us back to the crab-standard.


seriously shut the fuck up about the goddamn imps. we've had it so much worse.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You haven't posted a single good argument yet.

Because reducing Summoner to an MP/WHM is such a wonderful counter argument to the argument that subjobs are irrelevant to the problems of Summoner itself. But of course! The problem is the solution! Feel free to dedicate paragraphs to this single sentence if I am wrong, but isn't that called begging the question?

You've just quoted things that don't consider context over and over. Go ahead, tell me SMN isn't a pet job and doesn't at all play like a pet job, and so shouldn't be subject to the same pains of other pet jobs.

You second statement makes your first seem hypocritical. I have, in fact, said the exact opposite in response to BBQ:

I think I see where you're getting this wrong. You're saying that the Blood Pact Job Abilities should not be exceptions to the Amnesia rule, and, in that sense, Summoner gets screwed over "the same way as everyone else." I'll be blunt here - I totally agree with you that Blood Pacts should not be made special exceptions to the Amnesia Job Ability screw. To do that would be rather unfair to Dancers and Scholars, among other jobs, not to mention it would be a lazy way of programming around the problem.

The truth is, though, Summoner gets screwed especially hard by things that shouldn't even count as Job Abilities in the first place. They get screwed over just as much by Silence, like any other mage would. So, why the redundant screwing? The solution to this problem is, as I have said time and time again, Blood Pacts should be Magic, not Abilities. That way, they don't get any special exceptions, their job starts functioning more like the mage it should have been from the start, they still get hampered by Amnesia through their basic Pet Commands, but they aren't completely disabled from doing anything while the avatar is out. Rather than their MP going down the drain from being unable to Dismiss, they can burn it on some productive spells and then get their MP back some way or another. They won't be exceptions - they'll be mages.

It's like you intentionally ignore my actual arguments to nitpick minor things I say.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Subjobs are not, and they never will be, irrelevant to a discussion. That subjobs is directly tied to exactly what SMN is invited to do for parties.

Pretend to be a White Mage?

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Because reducing Summoner to an MP/WHM is such a wonderful counter argument to the argument that subjobs are irrelevant to the problems of Summoner itself.

I didn't reduce SMN to anything. Amnesia did that. Just like it does to every other job. You're taking SMN's problem with Amnesia, and saying "Look! Amnesia is proof the job is broken! Look how much more harm it does to SMN than any other job in the game!" You keep pretending we're in a subjobless universe for the sake of argument when subjobs have been, are, and will continue, to always factor into how jobs function. The fact SMN even has the innate resources to still function on a subjob is a boon of the job, not a disadvantage, even though it's oh so shameful. It was only a year ago that WHMs cried out in anger that other jobs get most of their key spells through subbing /WHM. Not long ago, we were asking why bother having a NIN/WAR when instead we could have an Asskicker/NIN instead. Some people are still wondering why a RDM/BST, or a PLD/BST, or a THF/BST, or a WHM/BST is superior to a BST/whatever when soloing.

What good is a THF that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

The truth is, though, Summoner gets screwed especially hard by things that shouldn't even count as Job Abilities in the first place. They get screwed over just as much by Silence, like any other mage would. So, why the redundant screwing? The solution to this problem is, as I have said time and time again, Blood Pacts should be Magic, not Abilities. That way, they don't get any special exceptions, their job starts functioning more like the mage it should have been from the start, they still get hampered by Amnesia through their basic Pet Commands, but they aren't completely disabled from doing anything while the avatar is out. Rather than their MP going down the drain from being unable to Dismiss, they can burn it on some productive spells and then get their MP back some way or another. They won't be exceptions - they'll be mages.

It's like you intentionally ignore my actual arguments to nitpick minor things I say.

Why? SMNs are the ones who keep wanting to be given excuses to keep their avatars out to do this and that. The avatar does things that best keep the SMN itself out of harms way, that can make up for the combat abilities that the SMN itself does not have, or deal damage that the SMN itself is not capable of doing on its own. And if the SMN feels like soloing something, how do they do it? Often by throwing disposable NPCs at a mob until it dies. That sounds an awful like another job, if you ask me (hint, the job does not end in "mage", though it is one that inexplicably subs /WHM on a regular basis). You know what this amounts to? Asking for all the benefits of being a pet job without any of the disadvantages by turning blood pacts into spells.

I have another cool idea. Why don't we turn Reward and Sic...excuse me, I mean Ready...into spells too? Makes absolutely no sense, thematically, but then I'd get to have my cake and eat it too.

They're getting the perfect excuse now to keep their avatars out. And you know what? It will still be screwed over by Amnesia, just like the other pet jobs. Only now they will be able to continue to cast White Magic all while their pets continue buffing the party.

What good is a BST that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a DNC that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

Is a COR that can't use roll anything other than a gimped RNG?

Is a PUP whose puppet is incapable of performing its abilities anything more than a gimped MNK?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You know what this amounts to? Asking for all the benefits of being a pet job without any of the disadvantages by turning blood pacts into spells.

Right, because Blood Pacts were clearly never meant to be Magic, because that would totally break Summoner. Never mind all the little updates like the one that just happened to add the Summoning Magic skillups, nor the one that managed to factor in Summoning Magic Skill in to them, either (granted, only "over cap," but it was better than nothing). Oh, and the update that split the Blood Pacts to two different categories, each with its own recast timer? I'm sure that every Summoner in the game couldn't care less about that footnote.

No. They weren't made in to Magic just so they can be equally screwed as any other pet job by a status ailment that wouldn't even see the light of EXP parties until years later. But that's okay! Healing Magic isn't affected by Amnesia, and you just happen to should be subbing something with Healing Magic anyway, right?! :D

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

What good is a THF that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a BST that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a DNC that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

Is a COR that can't use roll anything other than a gimped RNG?

Is a PUP whose puppet is incapable of performing its abilities anything more than a gimped MNK?

Why don't we turn Reward and Sic into spells too?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I have another cool idea. Why don't we turn Reward and Sic...excuse me, I mean Ready...into spells too? Makes absolutely no sense, thematically, but then I'd get to have my cake and eat it too.

Yes, because having a Mage job like Summoner cast spells totally doesn't make sense thematically.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

I will ask you again.

What good is a THF that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a BST that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

What good is a DNC that can't use anything but Utsusemi?

Is a COR that can't use roll anything other than a gimped RNG?

Is a PUP whose puppet is incapable of performing its abilities anything more than a gimped MNK?

Why don't we turn Reward and Sic and all automaton abilities into spells too?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

As brilliant as you believe your questions to be regarding Summoner, you are currently residing in the space where spamming, ad nauseam arguments, and copypasta overlap.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

This thread has probably just about run its course.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

As brilliant as you believe your questions to be regarding Summoner, you are currently residing in the space where spamming, ad nauseam arguments, and copypasta overlap.

People tend to repeat themselves they feel they are not being heard..

SMN was the first job in the game to have magic that does physical damage, the second being BLU. While all other jobs get resisted out the ass on imps with enfeebles and nukes, SMN and BLU do not.

I would think that this would be common knowledge, particularly since some summoners are so hung up on being avatar(d) melees, which is why I never brought it up until now. Stuff like Garuda's Claws or Spinning Dive or Eclipse Bite is all physical damage that comes at the cost of MP and is commanded by a job ability.

How does an imp defend himself from a physical magic onslaught? Same way he gets everyone else that has special physical attacks or uses magic - Amnesia and Silence. At worst, these are minor annoyances.

But you say, "I'm not invited to DD on Imps, I'm invited as a healer!" Well, then do what healers do if that's the role you accepted to fill. If you agreed to perform the role, you should be focusing your skills on filling it.

Yet SMNs Avatar burn imps all the time, particularly with a little guy known as Leviathan. Just so happens he's highly resistant to Amnesia, which makes him a popular choice for Imps. This, again, I assumed was common knowledge. Some SMNs still manage to walk into Amnesia and Silence range, but when you accept the invite, again, you should know what you're getting into with a Avatar burn on Imps.

SMN deserves the double-whammy if they're just going to walk right into it.

Are you getting a better picture now? Make SMN the exception and they're unstoppable. Every job should be stoppable somehow and every other job is. COR and DNC's main job functions come to a screeching halt under Amnesia. A BRD is just a soft target if he's silenced.