Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Going back to Everquest days with Alternate Advancement (AA) Points, which were merits by another name, the irony was always that casual players invariably had more merits than hardcore raiders. Raiding five to six hours a day five days a week left little time to grind out AA's while the casual max level players used to use the time we spent raiding to blast through them.

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

P.S. Telling me Imps are not mandatory is like telling me Square doesn't need to fix the status quo or merit situation.

Imps aren't mandatory. They're popular, but they're not mandatory.

Especially for SMN, which has that nifty bug in Campaign where AoE bloodpacts hit *everything* (in addition to level sync, including AF burns, and *every freaking camp other than imps*, not to mention FoV. SMN do just fine on the other brokenly good exp mob, which can't mimic bloodpacts even when they're the same as a spell.)

People will resort to Imps. That is the reality of things. It's fucked up, but you can't cover the sun with your hand and act like Imps aren't among the top picks for EXP. They're every bit as mandatory as melee burns.

Among, yes. That means one of several. That means if you avoid that one, you can go to the others. (Never mind that non-level-sync parties themselves are only *among* the ways for a 75 to make exp/merits.) I avoided imps on COR and it didn't (and still doesn't) stop me from leveling or gaining merits.

Honestly, this whole thing reminds me of a RNG complaining that they can't get invited to KRT monkburns because their job is just 100% screwed by bones. Yes, it is. So f*ing what? There are other mobs and other camps.

I firmly believe that high level exp should be fixed, and that fixing it will drastically reduce the importance of imps and colibri, and that all jobs that get hosed by amnesia will be better off when it is fixed, but that doesn't mean that there's something horribly wrong with them now.

[Ziero]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Forgot to hit this earlier -- this doesn't exactly work. This is how you'd test a flat double attack rate. It doesn't tell us how quickly that double attack rate increases. If you had a SMN bring up Ifrit and parsed a thf swinging a hornetneedle for 3 minutes, you may test sayyyyy 20% double attack rate. But then you have to wonder "did we even get to the max?" Maybe it starts at 10% and increases by 10% every minute it's out to a maximum of 50% after 5 mins (yeah right. don't we wish).

There's really no easy way to test the double attack rate of continually varying potency effect. Ergo, Karinya's astute observation that we could at least use one of the easily measured effects (such as Titan's) to discern the rate of increase first as well as the cut-off point -- for all we know, these things may not reach full potency 'til 30 minutes out. Then, repeating the test with Carby's Regen, we could make sure the rates are the same between the 2 and therefore make a more reasonable assumption as to the rate of growth of all other auras.

Finally, a very grueling low-end double attack test (think summon -> 1-3 swings -> desummon -> repeat for about 400 swings) followed by an easy-enough high end test (better have really good -perp!) could give us a decent try at graphing the rate of double attack rate increase.

Take a job with no innate DA or DA gear and then add a Smn. Just let the job keep swinging while Ifrit sits there picking his nose and giving you a DA boost. Do it for say, an hour (chances are the buffs will peak long before then). Then check the parser to see when DA rate starts to increase and by how much they start to increase.

As for Dual Wield, all it does is boost your weapon's DPS by dropping the Delay.I hope you realize the reason had nothing to do with this and everything to do with the 2-hander change.

Yes, I do realize that the 2 hander change drastically increased the DPS of 2 hander weapons without affecting their actual delay at all. Meaning that despite swinging slower then a DW job, they do just as much, if not more damage over time. Seeing how this entire discussion came from the line of thinking that "faster attack speed = more dps" I was showing how dominant 2 hander weapons were, which are slower then 1 handed weapons (ignoring high haste situations), despite their higher delay. Because when combined with the 2 hander bonuses, they can do much more damage then a DW in the same amount of time.

Edit: Also, just for the record, Silence is far less crippling to a Smn, who is not constantly casting, as it is to other mages. It's also exceptionally easy to cure. Amnesia is the only Imp ability which excessively cripples Smn because there is no cure and it leaves the Smn sitting there literally helpless. Of course, there's always that option of not fighting Imps as a Smn, which isn't hard to do at all when you consider that Smn has some pretty decent soloing abilities, especially at Imp levels.

[Romyro]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Just wondering...why is there back and forth about a SMN in an Imp party? Shouldn’t just knowing the basic mechanics of the job be enough to avoid most of these moves?

Are the smns you party with just not that bright? I mean the ranges of these are not insanely wide. Nor should a Smn be at the front lines that often. You can BP from a safe distance. Even with this new update, if you’re using say…Ifrit, you’re going to have your avatar attack the target while you stay back and probably help with healing (probably not using physical BPs for spike damage). I’m assuming this ‘aura’ is for people around the Avatar and not the smn. Your avatar isn’t going to die from meleeing. If it does pull hate…there is something seriously wrong.

I fight imps in CM on 2 jobs only. Bst and SMN…and most of the time it’s smn. I’d say I’m there at least 2-3 times a week for 1-3 hours each. I do all 3 setups from time to time
-2 Bsts & 1 Smn (common) lvl range 68-72
-Duo/Trio Smns (very common) lvl range 70-75
-Normal setup with Smn main healing or buffing/DDing (very uncommon) lvl range ~68?

On each of those setups I RARELY get hit with those Imp moves let alone both at the same time. At the end of the day, I can still use my fingers to determine how many times I got hit with either. Even looking into it further…a smn that does get hit with these often can look into echo drops and that Epoch(sp) ring right? Most smn I see use evoker ring and some variation of an MP ring, the most your sacrificing would be some mp. If you feel that particular MP is make or break…go buy some food that offers +mp to compensate.

I infact don’t mind use those tp moves. Don’t get me wrong, their annoying as hell but I like the fact that they do something moderately challenging to an xp party instead of eating your shadows…and your food 

[Balfree]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Shouldn’t just knowing the basic mechanics of the job be enough to avoid most of these moves?

Neg.

People want the game to play itself.

OH NO /duck

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Just wondering...why is there back and forth about a SMN in an Imp party? Shouldn’t just knowing the basic mechanics of the job be enough to avoid most of these moves?

Imp parties have scared me away such that I would never, ever go back to Caedarva Mire to EXP. I've main healed some as RDMs and parties seem to think it's perfectly Ok to go there with a 5 melee, 1 mage setup. Worse off, the trouble with Amnesia and Silence is plainly obvious, but I could be resting for MP, and a puller will bring the Imp right over me anyway (back when parties roamed there for merits. Thank God they don't do it anymore).

I've also had to main heal there as SCH, and some people are undermining just what sort of trouble Amnesia gives SCH. Without strategem use, a SCH is just a cut above a BLM/WHM main healing. With the area sensitive nature of the way AoE buffs are applied, it is not unusual to get caught up on Amnesia or Silence. Worse off if you're caught with your pants down and are stuck on Dark Arts, but have to continue casting White Magic anyway, then you're worse than a BLM/WHM main healer.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Yeah I personally prefer to stay the hell as far away as possible from Imps, XP'ing on them only until I can move up to Bhaflau Thickets (73+)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

SCH I did Imps twice, began to insist on Mount Z EXP PTs on Erucas until I was high enough to manaburn the Puddings with other SCHs and BLMs. That and do melee burn PTs as healer.

RNG I could work around imps by using Bow, I could murder them anyway. COR I had to do something similar, I just hung back til it was time to buff. I lost some damage due to being further back, but that was better than losing my double-ups.

[Ziero]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Thf gets boned hard by Imps in pts, losing the ability to SA and TA really kills a Thfs DPS. With other melees they can fire off their JAs whenever and still get their effects, with Thf it's all about timing.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

You know, you can get by with the loss of JA's on Imps if you just macro in (or preferably wear) Ecophoria Ring and just make a macro to use it. In fact, I hated having the loss of my ja's on DRK so much that I obtained 4 rings in total and cycled them out if need be. Most of the time I'd get rid of the loss of ja's and sometimes it was smarter just to wait. But it's completely managable. All this whining because of an ability that the game has which limits your character is just complete idiocy. You're character is going to have a rough time SOMETIME. It can't be lolmgzThiSiSeZ always

It's not like these situations aren't manageable anyway! You just have to be smart about it. Abrasive Tantra was like no big deal after ER. I guess a SMN (or mage) would have to use up a slot on their ring, but my god, it's not a huge loss to have to do so if the JA's are killing ya.

On a side note, anyone that complains about silence being a problem on Imps can STHU right now because it does not take that much gil to buy echo drops.... honestly, quit acting childish and whining about silence. How ignorant can you be? If you can't afford the echo drops (and the terrible 13-14k they cost) then don't party there lol. I don't know why people force themselves to party there if they don't want to deal with the Imps. I mean get mad all you want; just because you don't like something doesn't mean there's not a way to deal with it. This topic needs to be put to rest now. There's too much excitement around to go and buzzkill it with "omfgABRACEUVTANTRUH!!1111" lul

And YM, you're welcome. I did mean these forums hehe.


On another side note, I wonder if, in order to use Ifrit's Warcry more often, if people will start buying the +summoning skill items in order to make the thing last more than a minute? I mean it lasts 30 seconds and if you can keep it up for a minute, you can just spam that, and have the double attack kick in. The Warcry/DA combo sounds kinda nice, better than nothing if you can't find a brd/cor. Of course, meriting with no brd/cor would diminish uber xp, something ppl that can't stand meriting to begin with find as the bane of their existence. SMN attempting to fill that space may be met with annoyed stares. lol

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

"All this whining" is precisely because of the fact some people seem to think SMN is a special case that is the only job that gets miserably crippled by imps, despite the fact that, say, NIN is also a job that relies on both being able to WS and being able to cast spells. In fact, that can just about apply to any melee job that subs /NIN to Imps. Amnesia is just terrible for SCH and BST, from my humble experience.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

On a side note, anyone that complains about silence being a problem on Imps can STHU right now because it does not take that much gil to buy echo drops....

Back line jobs shouldn't really be getting hit with silence anyway. It starts to cause problems when you're the tank and your healer is lazy or like the moron rdm I had the other day subbed /blm. I always ensure I carry a stack or two of echo drops, I'm an alchemist after all, but I draw the line at blowing 3-4 stacks a party simply because the healer is either too lazy or inept to cure me.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Back line jobs shouldn't really be getting hit with silence anyway. It starts to cause problems when you're the tank and your healer is lazy or like the moron rdm I had the other day subbed /blm. I always ensure I carry a stack or two of echo drops, I'm an alchemist after all, but I draw the line at blowing 3-4 stacks a party simply because the healer is either too lazy or inept to cure me.

same here, anytime, I do this with about everything tough.

I always carry at least a stack of....
antidote
eye drops
echo drops
holy water
Poison potion
prism pow
Silent oil
..... along with 1-2 stacks of the food I need for the job I am currently using.

and I agree on the imps it was horrible as PLD/WAR, because I would go through atleast 1-2 stacks of drops, because most of the time my healers where not on the ball.

[Queen Uma]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

In fact, I hated having the loss of my ja's on DRK so much that I obtained 4 rings in total and cycled them out if need be

Not to nit pick but how did you carry four of these rings when they are rare?

Anyway, it's funny that everyone complains about imps but they're always top of the list when people are choosing a camp.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II (10/21/2009)

Not to nit pick but how did you carry four of these rings when they are rare?

It's extreme, but me and some friends carried rings on ourselves and our PL accounts when we were zerging Caedarva to make high end xp/hour in the late 70s. Technically I only ever used my two rings, but sometimes borrowed theirs if needed and vice versa. It's not convenient at all to trade crap around mid battle and most of the time I was better off just letting AT pass cuz sometimes it doesn't last as long as other times AND you have to wait for the ring to countdown. But I hated having TP ready and unable to do anything with it. That un-nerved me. So I dealt with it.

But christ, it wouldn't be forums if people didn't nitpick everyone's wording so they are exact in what they're saying cuz then you wouldn't have anything to nitpick about.