Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

The thing with Composure is, Haste alone essentially negates the recast penalty by like 90% and since it lasts much, much longer (not to mention Refresh & other buffs) the recast penalty is very much irrelevant. In fact the only conceivable time it could truly hinder you is when soloing with /NIN, but again this is moot for 2 reasons;

1) You're looking at a loss of a couple of seconds at most.

2) You're saving yourself several recasts + a tonne of MP which again negates the "drawback". IMO Composure is pretty damn broken as is, if it didn't have the recast "penalty" people would cry foul.

Long story short, bad example BBQ. And yes, I'm speaking from experience (69 RDM as of yesterday )

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

The thing with Composure is, Haste alone essentially negates the recast penalty by like 90% and since it lasts much, much longer (not to mention Refresh & other buffs) the recast penalty is very much irrelevant. In fact the only conceivable time it could truly hinder you is when soloing with /NIN, but again this is moot for 2 reasons;

1) You're looking at a loss of a couple of seconds at most.

2) You're saving yourself several recasts + a tonne of MP which again negates the "drawback". IMO Composure is pretty damn broken as is, if it didn't have the recast "penalty" people would cry foul.

Long story short, bad example BBQ. And yes, I'm speaking from experience (69 RDM as of yesterday )

I keenly remember you being on the QQ side of that update and I think we're all grown up enough to stop pointing at levels of in-game experience to justify a point. I've played around on my 65 RDM since the update and its still 65 because I find RDM solo and party play rather dull.

Many RDMs don't even use Composure at all because they can't work around the recasts being dfferent. You're also assuming a couple seconds at most based on a max haste build, something most RDMs don't even bother to have.

Also, was it the revolution RDMs were demanding? Nope. If anything, it emphasized and enhanced the role other people were telling RDM they were all along - a support class. What do you think a SMN update will do?

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I keenly remember you being on the QQ side of that update and I think we're all grown up enough to stop pointing at levels of in-game experience to justify a point. I've played around on my 65 RDM since the update and its still 65 because I find RDM solo and party play rather dull.

Many RDMs don't even use Composure at all because they can't work around the recasts being dfferent. You're also assuming a couple seconds at most based on a max haste build, something most RDMs don't even bother to have.

No, I've checked the differences with my standard gear with & without haste; it's about 1~3 seconds on average casting the spell manually & quickly re-opening my magic menu so I can see the recast timer the moment the spell triggers.


I agree with you though that RDM is bash-your-head-against-the-wall dull. But the truth is the recast penalty to composure is entirely neglectable, except perhaps in some extreme scenario where the 1~3 seconds could have meant Utsusemi Ni. But that also raises 2 points;

1) If you were in that much of a bind, odds are you were going to die anyway

2) I'm only 69 and don't have a swift belt, so I haven't even taken into account haste gear or Relic Body, just the basic haste spell RDM gets, Fast Cast 2~3 & AF Hat. It's slightly more noticeable in level synchs below 60 but I have yet to encounter a scenario where it was even remotely an issue.

[Nuriko]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I think they should have that option as well. But not full option of what the pet will do. They select sic from the menue then select offense or defense, and the pet will act acordingly. Kinda like how Dnc uses their dances.

I think a second JA on the same timer makes more sense ... let Sic be offensive JAs and the other be defensive.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Mal: Having the Haste spell doesn't magically neglect 25% worth of recast penalty because nothing stops you from using Haste without Composure for much lower recasts.

It saves a lot of MP? Certainly. But to say you're neglecting the penalties with a buff you'd want to have either way is silly.

BST gets quite a large choice in what pets to use, larger than any other job. (...) So, one-dimensional? If so, everyone else is, too.

Big whoop. Every job has a lot more depth when it's going one-on-one with mobs trying to squeeze every millilitre of performance out of himself. Stick a BST in a party and see how much depth you have then. Even if there were more than 1 or 2 affordable and reliable jugs, the lack of control over their TP moves and the 2 minute recast (in a day and age where most people don't take over 1 minute) makes choosing a pet for a specific TP move a flaky proposition. Until you can "force" the desired TP move with some sort of consistency (say, 2/3 of the time or higher) you'd just end up picking the pet with the better stats.

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

It saves a lot of MP? Certainly. But to say you're neglecting the penalties with a buff you'd want to have either way is silly.

That's not quite what I meant; I was saying that having Haste on essentially negates the penalty for standard cast times, though I suppose I should have been more specific. My main point is it's still amounts to a few seconds of recast regardless. So, do you want the substantial benefits of composure, or do you want to waste more MP & time for marginally faster recasts?

Triple duration for Haste, Refresh, Phalanx etc alone is enough to warrant using it.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 AM ----------

Big whoop. Every job has a lot more depth when it's going one-on-one with mobs trying to squeeze every millilitre of performance out of himself. Stick a BST in a party and see how much depth you have then. Even if there were more than 1 or 2 affordable and reliable jugs, the lack of control over their TP moves and the 2 minute recast (in a day and age where most people don't take over 1 minute) makes choosing a pet for a specific TP move a flaky proposition. Until you can "force" the desired TP move with some sort of consistency (say, 2/3 of the time or higher) you'd just end up picking the pet with the better stats.

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

BST is essentially a gimp WAR in this respect (where as DRG at least has A+ Polearm and some combat abilities). Now, if they would change the killer traits to grant bonus damage it would be an entirely different story. And quite frankly I've never understood why it doesn't work that way; You would think that someone who's studied Vana'diel's flora and fauna extensively would know their strengths & weaknesses.

More control over jugs would be nice, and would it really be too much to ask for Snarl to work on wild mobs and not just jugs?

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

For the last time, there is a 25% difference between Haste + Composure and Haste alone. On any spell where the recast is high enough to matter, that does NOT amount to a mere 1-3 seconds.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

If they don't want to break solo balance they could always give BST more control over jug pets specifically. Something like 1 to 1:30 recast on Sic and at least the ability to choose between "offensive move" or "defensive move" would be great for jug pets.

Yeah breaking party/endgame balance is clearly the better idea, not giving BST the melee traits they've needed since day one.

Every update for BST has been pet, pet, pet and not BST with the exception of Snarl. The problem with BST is no longer the pet, its the lack of a defined role for parties. Make us more of a melee class, make us a tank OR, even better, make us the crowd controllers we always should have been. I don't care which they decide on, I don't care if it comes in this update. Pets are not the problem in any degree anymore, aside from the lack of new jugs for two expansions.

But just like you guys say for SMN, simply adding new pets or even just tweaking how we control them them won't change much. BST needs a role to play and incentuve to he used for thier role. SMN actually does has roles to play, BST and PUP do not.

That was once the case for DRG, too. They buffed it from clumsy hybrid melee/healer to straight-up DD that's capable of support with a mage sub. Nothing really ever changed about the /mage half, but the main job got buffs outside of the pet.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I have no clue wtf you're talking about. BST's role in a party has always been to DD. It's been that way since people stopped listening to what Bradygames says and realized BST pets don't cut party EXP. Inviting BSTs has never really caught on that much for the most obvious of reasons: most of them solo. Nothing you do to the BST itself will change that reality.

Nothing really ever changed about the /mage half, but the main job got buffs outside of the pet.

And uh, while we're talking about "themes," which apparently matter so much, manipulating animals is BST's theme. A DRG can go wyvernless and hold his own, because of Jump, their trademark ability. BSTs don't have a reason to be petless, nor any trademarks other than Charming/Manipulate. It's not like you can pretend DRG pets are the same as BST pets and thus it makes sense to buff them the same way, either.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

BSTs don't have a reason to be petless, nor any trademarks other than Charming/Manipulate. It's not like you can pretend DRG pets are the same as BST pets and thus it makes sense to buff them the same way, either.

Maybe, but doesn't PUP just shit all over that logic? It's almost hypocritical really, given PUP is a "frilly" (just look at the AF & Relic...) entertainer that relies on it's delicate handwork to manipulate the automaton. So how in the world does it make any sense for it to have any combat prowess at all, never mind the 2nd highest hand-to-hand rating, martial arts & some evasion? (I still don't get how WAR, SAM and especially NIN didn't get much higher H2H ratings but whatever I didn't design the game.)

I mean in a nutshell the PUP is essentially damaging the very assets it relies upon >.>


And I'm all for alternative methods of crowd control.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I have no clue wtf you're talking about. BST's role in a party has always been to DD. It's been that way since people stopped listening to what Bradygames says and realized BST pets don't cut party EXP. Inviting BSTs has never really caught on that much for the most obvious of reasons: most of them solo. Nothing you do to the BST itself will change that reality.And uh, while we're talking about "themes," which apparently matter so much, manipulating animals is BST's theme.

If SE wants BST to function as a job charms mobs and controls them, then they've only half-succeeded. They need to make charming possible in various corners of the game they are clearly worried to, they need to take a serious look at how they've been shortchanging the job and make a few compromises

Over half of ToA's mobs and about 80% of WotG's new mobs are not charmable. And its not because they're "sentient" its just for no good reason. BST got Ladybugs and slugs out of WotG and that's pretty much it for new mobs to charm. Everything in Sea is not charmable, what is charmable in sky is now FoV fodder for all (bonehead play, SE, thanks for taking that camp away).

If they are a DD role, as you suggest they are, where are the traits of a damage dealer? We just get Killer Effects, which really only help in soloing and not anywhere else. DRG went years without a aecond accuracy bonus and it was really only around that time the tide turned for them. Oh right and there were a bunch of mobs weak to piercing added. Before we sent them against crabs and wondered why they weren't doing well...

And no, when DRG loses its pet, it loses its supplemental damage, same as any other pet job. DRG loses part of its power, they might still be a DD, but they're less of one without the wyverm.

Pet jobs were a big attraction to me in FFXI, but SE has yet to realize three of them fully in the course of six years now. I have two sitting in thier 60s and I've lost most interest in PUP and SMN. Of the four, only SMN and DRG have defined roles, but SMN's roles are either all or nothing, the avatar damage role being the lesser than the heal/support one. Even to me, that's unnattractive. I can totally suck it up and play the healer - I did it on RDM and SCH - and SMNs should be support-minded, but not support only.

If SE strengthened thier support side, though, they would be a lot better off, I can't deny it.

Since we have BRD and COR defined for offensive buffs and SCH, WHM and RDM for defensive, it would be sensible for SMN to go both ways, but just a little more strongly.

PUP just needs to be defined as a DD, if SE isn't going to define BST as the crowd controller it could have been, it also needs to be more clearly defined as a DD. Neither get invited because we're "solo jobs" and yet, PUP gets traits. For PUP, its the pet that's not focused and specialized enough. For the PUP himself, its just a lack of gear and skill levels that still damage them.

BST has the skill levels and its pet functions have seen a lot of attention and rounding out, but BST still has no melee traits to speak of. If SMN is poorly concieved because its dependant on a subjob, and it has WHM, RDM and SCH to work with well, then BST is in the same boat in that regard. Our best melee subs are WAR and NIN. If we go /NIN or /WAR we get melee traits.

This is good melee design? I think not.

SMN is reliant on WHM, SCH or RDM to define itself as... a healer. BST requires WAR or NIN to be defined as a DD at all. Its essentially the same problem. Its not that people don't mind these roles but that the main jobs are not defining that role.

I don't know how to put it more plainly than that.

SMN had job-defining buffs, but then came SCH and took them and did them all better. No one begrudges SCH for being good at it, but it not only took the healer role from SMN, but it took them down another notch. They can still get invited as healers, I'm pretty sure I could if I tried, too, and wouldn't mind it, but needs to be part of the job and not the center of it.

I totally get that, I just dislike SMNs for thier lack of patience. They do need an exclusive or exclusives that can't be overtaken by other job.

BST got one job defining exclusive - Snarl - and its a great ability when used right, but as Super Jump and Trick attack have proven, our community doesn't value enmity control anymore. If SE wants to build on it, offensive and defensive stances for pets could do that, I suppose. But simply giving direct command over Sic alone won't solve much and it doesn't define the job so much as it does the pet.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

If they are a DD role, as you suggest they are, where are the traits of a damage dealer?

The job has pets. If the pet is strong enough, why does the master need DD traits to count as a DD? The 2-hander changes obviously hurt every 1-hander DD's damage by comparison, but BST never had problems keeping up with damage in the old days. I wouldn't know about now, because I haven't seen a BST in a party in ages, because they're all solo.

And no, when DRG loses its pet, it loses its supplemental damage, same as any other pet job.

A DRG with no wyvern isn't dead weight. He's worse off, yes, but he's still working with A+ two-handed weapon skill, a potential piercing damage bonus, DD traits, and Jumps. A BST (or PUP for that matter) with no pet is dead weight; you could have a RDM meleeing and get comparable numbers. There's no comparing them. And contrary to popular belief, crabs don't resist any damage type, so the whole DRG vs Crab sucking thing is inaccurate.

Neither get invited because we're "solo jobs" and yet, PUP gets traits.

Martial Arts? Really? H2H as a weapon type was implemented in such a way that MA is mandatory for any job specializing in it; otherwise the DPS lags behind other weapon types. Not only does PUP's Martial Arts lag seriously behind MNK's, only obtaining MAIII at 75 while MNK gets it at 31, they've got a C for H2H skill, something unprecedented for a job meant to DD.

BST requires WAR or NIN to be defined as a DD at all.

PLD and NIN require /WAR for 90% of the game to be viable tanks. What's your point? What matters is the job's damage output, not whether it comes with DD traits and abilities. If using /WAR or /NIN, BST has enough damage output to compete with other DDs, then the job can be considered a DD.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

A DRG with no wyvern isn't dead weight. He's worse off, yes, but he's still working with A+ weapon skill, DD traits, and Jumps. A BST with no pet is dead weight. There's no comparing them.

We have no DD traits or spike damage traits of our own, why shouldn't we have them? The only thing really worth noting aside from lack of traits and abilities is that we're the only pet class that can get pets back quicker aside from SMN.

Killer effects are for chuckles and we all know it. Unless they add something to that when a mob is present that goes with the intimidation effect, it will remain worthless to any job that has them. If BST gets a buff to that trait, then PLD, SAM, DRG and DRK need them too, though theirs would be much more rare in use.

Being able to command jug pet abilities for spike damage is just as questionable as most of the vendor trash BLU has. And in BST's case only the vermin jugs and one plantoid jug bring reliable DD to the plate for parties. Carrie holds up well enough in a support tank role solo, but not as good as it could in parties and certainly not against IT++ . I'd love a spider jug for some Sickle Slash, but really, how reliable would that be against VT or IT+. I've had to try it in some situations and it just doesn't hold up well as it does against T or IT. SE isn't going to make it more reliable against VT and up because it would change the balance of the wholle game on a per-mob basis and BLU as well.

Finally, you assume BST wants to solo just as much as everyone else seems to think they want to, but when the time comes and the BST is right there seeking, he only gets a PT when he builds one and even then its just other BSTs and a COR if you're extremely lucky. No one cares to invite a BST, if they can more than hold thier own as a DD as you claim, then why aren't they commonplace in PTs?

If we want to solo, we'll hole ourselves up in a dungeon or scary CoP zone. That's really the only way to even know for certain we want to be soloing, aside from reading the search comments.

I've seen three party invites in my entire career as BST, one at Valkurm level (the only time I wasn't seeking a PT, I want to miss Valkurm and so do most people). The others were one Kuftal Tunnel PT and a Addy Subterrane PT. That's it. I guess when I have my flag up in Whitegate for hours semi-AFK, I'm just wanting to solo? When the flag is up while I am soloing, I'm just wanting to solo?

No, I solo because I'm likely never to see a PT. Two out of 69 levels have been gained solo so far. I'm not fancing my chances for invites on the last six levels, personally. Even duos and trios are fairly rare.

The only reason I put up with the lack of PTs is the fact I get about forty of both kinds of seals per week when I'm actively playing it. Basically the same comfort soloing BLMs and PUPs have. The gil payoffs are really the only benefit of soloing I can lay claim to.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I'd love a spider jug for some Sickle Slash, but really, how reliable would that be against VT or IT+.

Oh, so because the numbers vary wildly it suddenly means it's negligible? The same argument could be extended to DRG's wyvern. Or Skillchains! You downplay the potential behind being able to reliably get some spike damage out of your pet for free, then go and bring up DRG's Accuracy Bonus II like that suddenly transforms a job from a mediocre DD to a great DD?

Finally, you assume BST wants to solo just as much as everyone else seems to think they want to, but when the time comes and the BST is right there seeking, he only gets a PT when he builds one and even then its just other BSTs and a COR if you're extremely lucky. No one cares to invite a BST, if they can more than hold thier own as a DD as you claim, then why aren't they commonplace in PTs?

Don't play dumb, you know why. Might as well ask why DRG was "lolDRG" for years even though the job has always held up well against its competition - especially in a time when THFs TP'd in DEX gear, WARs swung everything but axes, and DRKs were dumber and weaker than they are now. Hell, why not ask why the offence-oriented PLD tanking style has taken so long to catch on despite being the superior option in a large part of the EXP scenarios. The masses only see a job's reputation or whatever strategies are hot at the time, not actual performance. This isn't an alien concept.

So why doesn't BST have a DD rep? For starters it wasn't presented as a DD job (much in the same way WAR was presented as a tank despite being more apt as a DD, and how NIN was never presented as a tank but as a stealthy killer even though tanking is the role it's proven to excel the most at.) The initial perception of the job is that it's PvE oriented and the go-to job for people who don't have the time for partying or would rather solo than LFG. And let's not get started on the fact that people avoided BSTs like the plague from the get-go thanks to Brady's guide. While people were assessing the different DD jobs from first-hand observation, BST was completely shunned for years. Nobody in the right mind was going to pick up the job if they wanted to party.

Why hasn't the perception changed? Besides being late to the party, as of the last census, only 2.39% of the game's population is made up of BSTs. It's the 6th least popular job. The job's competing against 36% of the player population (non-nuking DDs). There's twice as many SAMs as there are BSTs, and there's three times as many WARs, THFs, and MNKs. On top of that, only a fraction of the BST population has the time, gear, or willingness to party. So there's 4 slots in the party for DDs, there's more of almost every other DDs - many of them have reps of being the top tiers in the DD world - and not all BSTs want to party, and you're wondering why it's hard to get invites on BST?

Now suppose a BST gets in a party, and goes toe to toe with a WAR or THF or DRG or what have you. Unless someone is parsing, no one will take notice of the BSTs performance. Because the job doesn't have anything remarkable about it that you can simply observe (like SAM's e-peen WS damage), the other 5 party members walk away with this impression: "We did alright," not "Wow, I didn't know BST could do good damage."

Now if SE has yet to emphasize BST as a DD, I have to ask you what the hell was the point of adding Snarl, when its biggest benefit is being able to completely ignore conventional hate control in order to maximize damage, by dumping your hate on your jug pet. All that on a low 30 second timer.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

PUP is not a DD.

I actually don't know what to classify it as, because like BLU & RDM the job is highly versatile. But I suppose most people just pidgeonhole it into the DD role and I suppose it's not totally unwarranted; All the PUP can do on his own is swing his fists. Hate-free Cure V and Blizzard 4's that can outclass a BLM is pretty epic though.


I've partied a few times on BST and loved it. It's really fun once you get Snarl since if you're careful you won't ever take a single hit and put out pretty good DPS. BST itself really is lacking though in the melee DD department. Even SMN gets traits that help it out as a mage, while BST gets jack shit for anything.

My vote still goes towards making its killer traits grant full-time circle effects and adding a few more as well (Bird Aquan & Amorph Killer) to distinguish it a little more from the other DD's. This with some new jugs and control over Sic should be all BST really needs.