Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Disclaimer: I don't think SMN is getting an overhaul and I don't care if it does. Your argument caught my eye. I'm playing devil's advocate, that's all.

Thieves steal. Where does that get them in FFXI? They couldn't build a whole job around pilfering

How is it impossible to build a whole job around summoning an avatar and keeping it out? Unless you can expand on that, I don't see how this argument is relevant.

[Vyuru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

SMN, meanwhile, gets a small chunk of trying to program around the problems that could have very easily not existed from the word go. It was a fundamental error in design, a Mage that mostly doesn't cast Magic, and you all have seen me rant on that time and again.

See, you do bring up some good points, but I would like to point out something. You are getting all bent around the axle because the changes SE is/has been making to Smn are changes that should either have already happened or something that shouldn't have been broken to begin with.

Not really disagreeing with you on some of those, but the fact is that what Smn has gotten has been updates, and whether these issues should have been issues is frankly besides the point. It is the way Smn has worked darn near since the creation of the game and it is what you have to work with, unpleasant though it may be. I'm not saying you have to like it, but I am saying you have to realise that SE is working on Smn and is making improvements to the job.

Just look at all the stuff that Drg had to put up with, I'll point out that much of it shouldn't have been an issue to begin with as well. It's a long slow process to fix a job after it has been mucked up, so be patient. SE is actually moving faster with fixing Smn than it ever was with Drg.


I will however say that it partly the community's problem that Smn has been waiting so long for an update. Why? We play Smn like a ghetto Whm in parties. Where the heck is SE's incentive to fix Smn or add new summons if all we ever do with them is toss out a BP: Ward and get back to tossing out the Cure IIIs? Why should SE "fix" Summoner when we, as a community, do not let Summoner's summon? In fact we, as a community, get into long debates going into why Summoner should play Ghetto Whm, and on other forums, mock the players who want to summon. Probably from SE's perspective, we took Smn in a way that SE did not intend, much like Nin. We got into long debates as to why Nin should tank, and probably even on this forum mocked the players who wanted to play a DD Ninja, unless they were sporting shuriken or other exceptional gear or highly unusual job combo like Nin/Blm.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

How is it impossible to build a whole job around summoning an avatar and keeping it out? Unless you can expand on that, I don't see how this argument is relevant.

I didn't say it was impossible, I implied it would leave them too one-dimensional to be worth anything. And it would likely have to draw power away from other jobs that have problems in various corners of the game.

SMNs oversimplfy their purpose by saying the main function of the job is summoning. That's like saying RNG just exists to shoot ammo, but doesn't my ammo have differently purposes, functions and situations? Shooting might always be my situation as a RNG, but I'm not always shooting for DD. If I'm solo, my crossbow is a source of HP and controlling the mob. If I'm in Dynamis, the crossbow weakens mob defense, supporting others by improving their damage in addition to my own. If I switch over to Bow, Demon Arrows allow me to lower the damage tanks and party members might take from the mob. For really threatening two hours, I can bind a mob so allies can back off and the enemy loses a big opportunity to turn things back in its favor.

Saying RNG is straight-forward and just about gear is pretty dumb. It has its nuances like any other job.

Summoner does not need to be "the guy that leaves the avatar out." That's not going to be what save the job and its never been designed to do that. When your pet can just be resummoned on MP, you don't get to keep it out forever. The other that get pets get them on jA recast or they turn on us in the heat of battle.

SE has given SMN numerous means to keep avatars out longer, but not the means to keep them out indefinitely. If the concept was to leave avatars out, they could have done it long ago, the fact they haven't and still don't tells you they are wary of making such a change to SMN because they know it means unbalancing it.

Avatar magic attack and more so, magic accuracy needs to be improved for SMN. Buff duration needs to be more potent and some buffs need to be replaced with something better than Ice and Shock Spikes. Skill could be tweaked to make avatar DD a little better. All of these are refinements SE could make to the job, but for what SMNs really want deep down in the greedy little hearts is the opportunity to DD more often with their avatars.

If SE goes that route, you can bet it will come double edged. RDM and WHM didn't get melee buffs without something taken away. Taking things away from WHM and RDM? That's not so drastic. What do we take from summoners to make a avatar's melee more mighty?

Whac's in-theme with summoner that we can use to make that happen? I'm sure many will dance around the answer to that one, but its power in exchange for frailty. SMNs seem so eager to give up curing but we know that's not going to happen, as a SMN's manapool is the "power." SE scaling down cures wouldn't do much of anything for those that cast Cure III already.

But what about that tiny little HP pool and low defenses? If a certain ability were to come along that let summoners give up HP and Ward Pacts for more powerful versions of the Rage pacts, would they be happier with that? If an opposing ability were to come along that sealed off Rage pacts for more MP exaustive Ward buffs in exchange for greater potency and duration, would that work?

This is actually the sort of thing I see SE doing, SMNs just want to have thier cake and eat it too, but its never that simple.

SE can give SMNs what they think they want and still fix the job, but it won't be all cake like SMNs want it to be. Every other new ability that comes along comes with a downside. RNGs can live with a sizable -% Slow on melee from Velocity Shot in order to get quicker shots, RDM has to accept longer recasts if they want to boost the power of Enspells - so is SMN willing to sacrifice as well?

Based on attitude, I doubt it.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Whoah, whoah, easy. If that entire post was directed at me, then you need to read the disclaimer again. I am not advocating a SMN job overhaul. I don't believe such a thing will happen. Whether an alternate implementation is possible now is of no concern to me. I'm addressing what could have been done if they had implemented SMN differently from day 0; mainly your claim that a "leave the avatar out" variation is unfeasable.

I didn't say it was impossible, I implied it would leave them too one-dimensional to be worth anything.

I object quite strongly, unless you mean to imply PUP is one-dimensional. All it takes is a little creativity. If you want one-dimensional pet manipulation, you need not look further than BST. So how come you don't take issue with BST's (in)ability to manipulate pets? It's rather one-dimensional to me, when your control over the pet boils down to controlling its position, giving it permission to attack, and telling it to pick a TP move at random.

When your pet can just be resummoned on MP, you don't get to keep it out forever.

And you can't think of a way to balance this out? I can. Here's a few ideas, off the top of my head:
1) Some spiritual link bullshit where the SMN takes damage if the avatar takes damage. Doesn't have to be on a 1:1 ratio, although it could, since avatars already come with some damage reduction.
2) Force a cooldown timer for resummoning that starts when the avatar dies, not when it's summoned.
3) SMN gets Raise weakness if avatar dies, and has a resummoning cooldown on a dismiss that's below a certain amount of HP%.

Personally? What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is how the whole thing was set up so that your sub is irrelevant and your stats don't matter for your performance (unless your "stat" says "Perpetuation Cost" or "Blood Pact"). That's boring and lame, and the main reason we have heated arguments about whether or not SMN's identity lies in its sub.

RDM and WHM didn't get melee buffs without something taken away

I need your help on this one. I don't recall RDM and WHM losing anything when they were given their job updates. Am I interpreting something incorrectly or overlooking something?

but for what SMNs really want deep down in the greedy little hearts is the opportunity to DD more often with their avatars.

You certainly aren't biased at all, huh.

[Lmnop]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Guys...

We're talking about SMN on Ranger-day again.

No matter what you all say, it'll get repeated in about 2 weeks when the thread dedicated to the unveiled SMN changes hits DiV.

So 'Bbq, do you at least agree with me that these Ranger changes took a lot less game-balance testing (with possible exception of the enmity<>distance deal) than sayyy the introduction of a new avatar or job ability?

And YM: you could just add the coma for me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I object quite strongly, unless you mean to imply PUP is one-dimensional. All it takes is a little creativity. If you want one-dimensional pet manipulation, you need not look further than BST. And how come you don't take issue with BST's (in)ability to manipulate pets? It's rather one-dimensional to me, when your control over the pet boils down to controlling its position, giving it permission to attack, and telling it to pick a TP move at random.

BST gets quite a large choice in what pets to use, larger than any other job. While this can be ruled by zone in some respects - and that's really the main point I take issue with in SE's design of the job, its the only job discouraged by zones to keep it from meeting potential (Hello Zilart Palaces, Sea, HNM camps)- we still have jug options and what pets we call forth have much to do with what abilities we want to use. I don't use bats against diremites because they're great DDs against diremites, I use them because the CoP bats have Subsonics and they use it quite often. Subsonics will bring that bat up to snuff and raise my damage.

So, one-dimensional? If so, everyone else is, too.

DRG and PUP don't have total control of their pets, either. The wyvern has to wait for a direct cue from the DRG to do a breath attack or healing breath. There are no direct commands. The execution of Healing breath has conditions which can change from the moment before DRG makes the call. PUP doesn't get to control every action of the automation, PUP just gets to determine initial actions and criteria for the automation to observe to help support him.

SMN is the only pet job with direct command of pets. Hell, avatars even run out to defend them from harm, which no other pet will do.

And you can't think of a way to balance this out? I can. Here's a few ideas, off the top of my head:
1) Some spiritual link bullshit where the SMN takes damage if the avatar takes damage. Doesn't have to be on a 1:1 ratio, although it could, since avatars already come with some damage reduction.

Symbiosis is DRG's theme. SMN doesn't share an existence with avatars, they give up endurance to give Avatars power and allow them into physical world. That's more of a parasitic relationship.

2) Force a cooldown timer for resummoning that starts when the avatar dies, not when it's summoned.

Then SMNs really would have to be WHMs for that time, just like PUPs would just be weaker MNKs without their Automations.

3) SMN gets Raise weakness if avatar dies, and has a resummoning cooldown on a dismiss that's below a certain amount of HP%.

BLU, PUP and DRG. While these aren't exciting facets of their jobs, I don't see why SMNs should be able to make the same sacrifices. Job enhancements don't really come with punishments this severe anyway.

Avatars also really never die, they just go back to sleep in their world until the SMN has the willpower (MP) to call them back.

[quote]Personally? What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is how the whole thing was set up so that your sub is irrelevant and your stats don't matter for your performance (unless your "stat" says "Perpetuation Cost" or "Blood Pact"). That's boring and lame, and the main reason we have heated arguments about whether or not SMN's identity lies in its sub.[quote]

Again, symbiosis was conceptualized for DRG. To give SMN some new avatar facets based on sub, you have to steal from DRG to accomplish it. Avatar jobs could be expressed better, but then you'd be taking away from BST, which controls mobs of the widest range of professions. You could customize avatars to resemble a job, but you'd take away from PUP.

SMN has to be updated on the ideas of SMN, drawing directly from another job will only do disservice to another job. It can have the spirit of some ideas from other jobs, but it has to be different.

All these new "stances" are inspired by SAM and SCH, but they're not what SAM and SCH do literally.

Can it be done from withing SMN and stay true to SMN? Yes. The RDM and WHM updates were.

I need your help on this one. I don't recall RDM and WHM losing anything when they were given their job updates. Am I interpreting something incorrectly or overlooking something?You certainly aren't biased at all, huh.

WHMs have to risk physical damage to enhance the buffs they give in the new melee-oriented ability. So WHM has to go from cleric to risking marytrdom to enhance a buff. That's in-character to the job.

RDM's update increases recast timers for a job that specializes in casting quickly, lowering their nuke DoT and ability to maintain refresh/haste cycles in exchange for greater accuracy, enspell damage and personal buff duration. This is also in-character and that's important.

So 'Bbq, do you at least agree with me that these Ranger changes took a lot less game-balance testing (with possible exception of the enmity<>distance deal) than sayyy the introduction of a new avatar or job ability?

The enmity/distance thing could muck with other facets of our ranged formula again, so this might take some time for SE to work out, but hopefully its just a little something layered on top for diversity. The new sweet spot feedback also works into this, and Camo enmity could as well, so I don't think playing with the ranged formula in any kind of way is the mere trifle of an update people making it out to be. I expect there to be a few maintenance follow-ups to tweak this more than anything else that gets added in the update.

When RNG got nerfed, one of the key reasons was /NIN, but they were too scared to touch /NIN for fear of game-wide backlash. RNG could dish-out insane damage for taking no damage/hate in return. So they nerfed our damage, then broke the ranged formula (and refused to admit it).

What if SE makes it so bows generate very limited enmity? Then we're back there all over again to the pre-nerf RNG issue. The community tends to like low risk/high returns, I don't thing SE wants that for RNG again and I don't think the community is above being able to exploit RNG all over again.

Avatars have a template to go off of, so its just a matter of what new skills they have (hopefully exclusive) and what new SMN abilities might affect them. That said, they'd probably require every bit as much testing as the RNG update. Neither job has ever had simple treatments because they've always been balance monsters.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

If SE goes that route, you can bet it will come double edged. RDM and WHM didn't get melee buffs without something taken away. Taking things away from WHM and RDM? That's not so drastic. What do we take from summoners to make a avatar's melee more mighty?

I need your help on this one. I don't recall RDM and WHM losing anything when they were given their job updates. Am I interpreting something incorrectly or overlooking something?

Can't speak for WHM, but RDM loses out in using its stance for frontline melee. Too many times I find I'm having difficulty keeping up with spells in a group setting, only to find I forgot to remove Composure after self-casting Refresh and Haste.

What would a comparable SMN trade off be? To keep the avatar out indefinitely, the SMN loses the ability to cast all other schools of magic while the avatar is in play?

All this emphasis on stances tells me SE is afraid to buff any job without making the job give up something in exchange and I have this funny feeling the coming updates for BST and SMN will be a lot like that, unless like the RNG update, they will be updates to abilities or traits that already exist, much like the "Circle Abilities" update. Beyond a potential new avatar, that's all I see going for SMN, which actually would fix a lot.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

BST gets quite a large choice in what pets to use, larger than any other job.

That all do the same god damn thing. Allowing us to at least pick what attack our pets do with Sic would do a lot for BST (not to mention dropping the timer to 1 minute...)

Symbiosis is DRG's theme. SMN doesn't share an existence with avatars, they give up endurance to give Avatars power and allow them into physical world. That's more of a parasitic relationship.

In Karuha-Baruha's case, it took his life.

Avatars also really never die, they just go back to sleep in their world until the SMN has the willpower (MP) to call them back.

They don't die because they were never even there in the first place; An avatar is by definition (pretty sure anyway) a vessel for another being; In this case, the summoner spends their mana (spiritual energy) to maintain an effigy or manifestation of the God, not the actual God itself. The same principal applies to elementals as well since they are literally power incarnate. It also serves to justify the avatars being so much stronger in the BC's (especially Waking the Beast, holy shit are they ever powerful)

[Durahansolo]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Allowing us to at least pick what attack our pets do with Sic would do a lot for BST (not to mention dropping the timer to 1 minute...)

If this happened, I would go back to using BST again. I'm seriously interested in what they're going to do now.

[Romyro]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

That all do the same god damn thing. Allowing us to at least pick what attack our pets do with Sic would do a lot for BST (not to mention dropping the timer to 1 minute...)

Over half of the Bsts in my LS have a zoolander hat…
Would love to see 12-18+ Bsts all 1000 needling at the start of a fight (Amigo jug).

Of course the amigo jug isn’t super common...could get pricey

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

That all do the same god damn thing. Allowing us to at least pick what attack our pets do with Sic would do a lot for BST (not to mention dropping the timer to 1 minute...)

They all do Metallic Body? That's interesting. I'd say it was more of a problem that BSTs don't invest in a variety of jugs than pets doing the same thing. The fact that some BSTs will go against the order of beasts in favor of what one pet is more likely to do than another tells me that there's a bit more to it than doing the same buffs, attrcks and debuffs. You can't even know for sure what you'll get out of a hecteyes mob, but if I get an AM, I'll take it.

BST needs the kind of fixes DRG got at this point. Some new jugs would be nice, but I'd like to see BST get some job traits that let our A- skill in Axes mean something more than having to run to WAR or NIN. I take us getting the relic axe and a multi-hit axe and A- skill to mean that BST, not WAR, is supposed to be the premiere handaxe user. Some traits or abilities to back that up would do more for BST than any amount of control over a pet's TP moves would.

BST gets control over Sic and they're going to be judged by whether we have Amigo Sabotender jugs or not. That would be one-dimensional and really, SE's never going to let those become commonplace due to raw power alone.

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I would like to add to the sic ability too.

If they did add that then... There would be MANY more jug burn parties. Every minute of a skill that you want them to use... Thats gonna kill very fast, and they will out exp most parties. Not Astral Burn parties though, but still, theyd gain tons of exp at a very fast rate.

[Losrase]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

They all do Metallic Body? That's interesting. I'd say it was more of a problem that BSTs don't invest in a variety of jugs than pets doing the same thing. The fact that some BSTs will go against the order of beasts in favor of what one pet is more likely to do than another tells me that there's a bit more to it than doing the same buffs, attrcks and debuffs. You can't even know for sure what you'll get out of a hecteyes mob, but if I get an AM, I'll take it.

BST needs the kind of fixes DRG got at this point. Some new jugs would be nice, but I'd like to see BST get some job traits that let our A- skill in Axes mean something more than having to run to WAR or NIN. I take us getting the relic axe and a multi-hit axe and A- skill to mean that BST, not WAR, is supposed to be the premiere handaxe user. Some traits or abilities to back that up would do more for BST than any amount of control over a pet's TP moves would.

BST gets control over Sic and they're going to be judged by whether we have Amigo Sabotender jugs or not. That would be one-dimensional and really, SE's never going to let those become commonplace due to raw power alone.

I always thought that Sic should allow the BST to pick between defensive moves and offensive moves.

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

I always thought that Sic should allow the BST to pick between defensive moves and offensive moves.

I think they should have that option as well. But not full option of what the pet will do. They select sic from the menue then select offense or defense, and the pet will act acordingly. Kinda like how Dnc uses their dances.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions: Part I (10/14/2009)

Extra Life is tomorrow so I don't currently have the time to persuade a brick wall to think beyond how Summoner is right now. I'll just keep it to one fact check before I go:

RDM has to accept longer recasts if they want to boost the power of Enspells

RDM's update increases recast timers for a job that specializes in casting quickly, lowering their nuke DoT and ability to maintain refresh/haste cycles in exchange for greater accuracy, enspell damage and personal buff duration.

COMPOSURE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

GOOD NIGHT!