≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

[Elwynn]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

I am disappointed in Unions. I thought they would at least allow party-only spells to work on a larger range of people, but in the end, all we get is nothing more than something to keep everybody in the battle from being in the same lot group. And you don't even know who is in your union until they lot (or if they tell you), not that it really matters anyhow.

Where it can get interesting is on traditionally low-man battles like at FKN. Since there are going to be five unions available no matter how many people show up for the battle, you could potentially have a good chance at loot when you're not competing against 20 people for 8 items.

I'm guessing that union treasure is based on how well people in the particular union fight (probably based on uncapped XP or AN, and possibly ignoring caps for being below level 60), and since XP/AN is a finite resource in any given battle (since more enemies don't show up with more players), when things cool down we should see similar loot counts for fewer people.

[Durahansolo]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

One thing about the campaign update... now everybody and his dog are going to campaign battles. 100+ players plus the average group of beastmen

Ahhh yes...This gives me a reason to go back to campaign. I was tired of dying all by my lonesome.

[Mhurron]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

What is so good about the Union drops that everyone and their dog is currently doing them?

[Ziero]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

They're new.

I am disappointed in Unions. I thought they would at least allow party-only spells to work on a larger range of people, but in the end, all we get is nothing more than something to keep everybody in the battle from being in the same lot group. And you don't even know who is in your union until they lot (or if they tell you), not that it really matters anyhow.

Where it can get interesting is on traditionally low-man battles like at FKN. Since there are going to be five unions available no matter how many people show up for the battle, you could potentially have a good chance at loot when you're not competing against 20 people for 8 items.

I'm guessing that union treasure is based on how well people in the particular union fight (probably based on uncapped XP or AN, and possibly ignoring caps for being below level 60), and since XP/AN is a finite resource in any given battle (since more enemies don't show up with more players), when things cool down we should see similar loot counts for fewer people.

Imo, Unions as they are now are absolute garbage. They force you to give up exp (can't refresh tags) in exchange for a chance to lot on something that might possibly drop. And since the drops themselves are based on how well the Union performs during the Campaign, not the individual, those "Unions of One" will see little to often times no reward. The more people in a Union doing stuff, the bigger the loot pool...the more people are lotting against you. In the end it's nothing more then a way to promote more competition withing Campaign. Because not only are you just via to get the best exp per hour for yourself, but then you have to lot against people who were just helping you stay alive against those three pissed off mobs. And Altana help you if you die without RR up at the end of the fight, because I doubt people will be quick to raise you until all the loot drops.

[Ketaru]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

Imo, Unions as they are now are absolute garbage. They force you to give up exp (can't refresh tags) in exchange for a chance to lot on something that might possibly drop. And since the drops themselves are based on how well the Union performs during the Campaign, not the individual, those "Unions of One" will see little to often times no reward. The more people in a Union doing stuff, the bigger the loot pool...the more people are lotting against you. In the end it's nothing more then a way to promote more competition withing Campaign. Because not only are you just via to get the best exp per hour for yourself, but then you have to lot against people who were just helping you stay alive against those three pissed off mobs. And Altana help you if you die without RR up at the end of the fight, because I doubt people will be quick to raise you until all the loot drops.

Union just makes it obvious that there was always an undercurrent of competition in Campaign. Mobs have limited amounts of HP, so it's a race to fit as much damage as you can in before it's dead. Mobs have AoE so you can take some damage that way, but only one person can actually tank, making people compete for hate. EXP for healing others, you have to beat the other healers to it (demoralizing wasted Cure V for 200 HP much?). That's why some jobs that are poor at healing themselves (even with /DNC) or jobs that lack skills so they are extremely reliant on their MP pool fall behind others in this race.

That's also why some jobs like RDM, WHM, BLU, PLD, DNC, etc. actually have all the cards in their hands. If they wanted to tank, even before this update, all they had to do was let you die if you outtanked them. NOTE- I'm not saying I do this! And I'm not saying most people do this! But I recognize that it was actually always in the realm of possibility. I actually know one THF, if you outtank him, he will pull out Kraken Club and start feeding the mob TP on purpose. I will admit that I actively try to cure others, but that is as much self-serving as it helpful. Healing others helps me tank and get EXP for taking damage.

To date, I think the only place in the game where I truly think it isn't about competition is Besieged. HNM of course is about competition, but some others are less obvious. In parties, you are working together to get EXP. But if another party shows up, you don't wish the two you can co-exist. You hope that your party utterly steamrolls the other party. You may level certain jobs to get a competitive advantage over others. And even if you level a job for the purpose of soloing, you are doing it to go around the process of party forming that others have to go through.

I suppose that's a pretty bleak way to see the game. But then FFXI has always been as much about competition as it was about comraderie.

[Raydeus]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

What is so good about the Union drops that everyone and their dog is currently doing them?

Don't know, don't care. I just like the Union name Coyote. d(^^d)

[Ziero]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

And that's what pisses me off about this whole Union bit. Campaign needs something to make people want to work together towards a common goal, not something to increase the rift. Unions could have done this, they could have given players the options, the choice, to try and work towards a common goal to increase rewards for everyone. Would it really have been that hard to make those in a union be able to target others with Pt only spells and abilities? Give boosted Exp/AN to all those in unions when certain conditions in battle are met (xx number mob killed/general killed/NPCs alive after fight etc)? To not only force players to give up increased Exp per hour due to the inability to refresh tags, but to provide players with absolutely no benefit other then letting them randomly lot on junk items at the end of an hour long battle, is just another kick in the balls to Campaign. While it's crowded in the past now, in a few weeks when people get their Medal ranks and AN gear, Campaign will probably be worse off then it was.

[Elwynn]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

To date, I think the only place in the game where I truly think it isn't about competition is Besieged.

That's because it's about the skillups. "Bio II? Sure! Anything to skill up my gimp dark magic after grinding to 75 in Qufim!"

[Raydeus]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

And that's what pisses me off about this whole Union bit. Campaign needs something to make people want to work together towards a common goal, not something to increase the rift. Unions could have done this, they could have given players the options, the choice, to try and work towards a common goal to increase rewards for everyone. Would it really have been that hard to make those in a union be able to target others with Pt only spells and abilities? Give boosted Exp/AN to all those in unions when certain conditions in battle are met (xx number mob killed/general killed/NPCs alive after fight etc)? To not only force players to give up increased Exp per hour due to the inability to refresh tags, but to provide players with absolutely no benefit other then letting them randomly lot on junk items at the end of an hour long battle, is just another kick in the balls to Campaign. While it's crowded in the past now, in a few weeks when people get their Medal ranks and AN gear, Campaign will probably be worse off then it was.

The way I see it that's what SCNM are for. You can't expect Campaign to have that amount of organization unless it's a LS kinda thing.

If I was forced to party or to deal with other people's screw ups I'd just skip the Union thing. (Seriously you'd expect people to stop enf'ing Gnats after the 5th time you shout it.)

[Mhurron]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

If the Union rewards are that crappy, once everyone has their medal rank and AN items Campaign will go back to the way it was. I don't see how it will get worse.

/need 60k for the Cobra Robe after depleting my AN on the other toys.
/It's nice having an update with gear I can use that I can get right then.

[Raydeus]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

Exactly, the Union stuff is just an extra.

And heck I'm freaking surprised (in a good way) SE put the cool Campaign items on note exchange instead of making them a Union drop. I guess they can't fail 100% of the time, the laws of probability said they would get at least something right eventually.

[Ketaru]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

Yeah, honestly Unions way of gauging your Union's success is pathetic. I was BST/RDM in Beaucedine Glacier [S] yesterday. You know those gargoyles that I described with their hellish AoE damage and gravity? Came to the conclusion that they were too dangerous for me to fight halfway through. So for a majority of the fight, I actually just healed back all the damage I took, cause that's really all I had MP to do and stood back and watched my pet fight. Didn't even have to interact with anybody else, not that I would've had the MP to. So all I had to show for was pet melee damage done/taken...and I was eligible to lot on the Union drops. I suppose I could've pulled my own weight for real and stayed in range to deal damage while risking death. But nah, let's just see how good this system is at gauging cooperation. Go team!

Suffice to say I don't expect people to go here after the hype dies down. And I suspect I won't either unless I really had to for something like the missions.

[Raydeus]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

Suffice to say I don't expect people to go here after the hype dies down. And I suspect I won't either unless I really had to for something like the missions.

And that's when I'll move in. I was the only one fighting in La Vaule for the longest time. So I'm hoping I'll be able to do something like that in the northlands as well.

[Ziero]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

The way I see it that's what SCNM are for. You can't expect Campaign to have that amount of organization unless it's a LS kinda thing.

If I was forced to party or to deal with other people's screw ups I'd just skip the Union thing. (Seriously you'd expect people to stop enf'ing Gnats after the 5th time you shout it.)

But Campaign by it's very nature forces you to deal with other people's screw ups. But the problem is, when people do Campaign, all they care about is themselves. Which is all fine and dandy, people are selfish pricks, I get it. But in the long run, the rest of the server will suffer due to lost zones, fewer ANNM areas and a general ass raping in the past. If SE could just add benefits to actually winning Campaign instead of just soloing a single mob for 20 minutes that everyone who helped to achieve XX goal could gain from, I feel it would be a much better event for everyone.

In the end, once the initial craze wears down and people have all their AN gear, it most likely will be better to skip out on Unions. Because if you're alone, you won't get much in drops, but at least you can max out your Exp per hour by exchanging tags.

[Elwynn]

Re: ≪Jul. 21, 2009 (JST) Update Details≫

...and it finally happened. After an awesome battle in FKN, just after dumping the last of my MP on cures when the battle changed to fort bashing, WHAM, my PS2 crashed. No XP, no Union drops, no NOTHING. (it was presumably the spam from the NPCs bashing on the forts that made the crash possible) And now that the battle has reached the lolgimpfortbash stage, I can't get enough XP to qualify for Union drops now.

Yay SE for making stuff that's dependent on YOUR CRAPPY CODE NOT CRASHING to get anything out of it. And making it so the crashes come from effects spam that can't be turned off with the effects filters.

And now we get a 2-hour maintenance to fix whatever SE found was broken, or just didn't work the way they thought it would work after thousands of players started banging on it. Maybe it's even something broken in the lame new "expansion". The good part of this is that it's timed right for me to eat something.