Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

You know what I mean. There's no muscle memory, there's very few maneuvers to do, there's no timed button inputs (at best you time something between mob attacks. So hard!), nada. Everything in this game is automatic. It's all knowledge. If you want to get philosophical about what kinds of knowledge are also skills, leave me out, it's besides the point. If you really want to, I'll rephrase and argue that the only skills needed are those that can be obtained through knowledge, no practice or muscle memory needed.

I know what you mean, but you can't weigh skill in fighting games or first person shooters on the same terms as skill in RTS or MMORPGs.

By your logic here, no game requires skill simply because you'd have to refer to something. You didn't learn your Smash Bros. Melee moves without a reference or practice. You had to look at the movelists, practice, observe animations and so on. Smash Bros doesn't deal in dice rolls, elemental weaknesses or understanding group morale.

Hell, you can't even talk about one fighting game to another in terms of skill and it mean the same thing? What is a skilled DoA player do that will help him beat a Virtual Fighter 5 player? The games aren't on the same level at all.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that Pokemon actually is one of the deepest RPGs out there, but people will readily overlook that depth and go play a lesser game with flashy "mature" cinematies (Aerith died, boo hoo) and consider themselves a skilled RPG player. Skill in RPGs is resource management, building effective characters, knowing strengths and weakneses, knowing how to build your character's skills and acting accordingly with them in combat. And that's before we get to the dice rolls, dungeons and exploration.

That's not far removed from what you have to do with a Zelda game, but does that fact it requires some reflexes suddenly make it a game of greater skill and sophistication. I love my Zelda games, but I wouldn't exactly say so.

[Balfree]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

aerith died

f*ck you

;;

[Feba]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

'Skills' can be simply defined as where knowledge meets improvisation.

Games like FPS and fighters force you to constantly improvise to changing situations.

Even in RTS, faster reaction times, faster clicking speeds, more accurate mouse movements, and so on can make a difference.

In FFXI, everything moves at a pace that generally allows you to stick to a script and come out ahead of people who think on their feet. The only time skill really comes in to play are when things like bad pulls happen-- which require you to screw up in the first place. Most of the incredible feats players pull off in FFXI are due to one of two things: 1- Planning. This is where players like Avesta fall. This doesn't make their achievements less incredible in any way, though. 2- Sheer luck. The "getting hit twice by some stupidly large mob and surviving" sort of thing.

If you give someone an explanation of how FFXI works, and a level 75 character, they can very well be playing like the best within a short period of time. That will never happen in faster paced games, which require muscle memory, reacting to situations without having to think them through, understanding multiple options. It doesn't make FFXI a lesser game, it's just a much less spontaneous one than others.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

As a general observation, the people who usually go overboard about their amazing level of skill playing games seem to have lost sight of the fact they're meant to be a fun pastime not a way to compensate for the blatant lack of self worth they have in RL. That's not directed at anyone in particular, just something I've noticed often over the years from random socially maladjusted hardcore gamers.

[Solymir]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

After having read Today's new Update thread I think my opinion of this update has changed slightly. It is no longer made up of complete fail. The new Campaign bodies (at least the two of them) are actually useful. Being able to read all of the changes one after the other put everything into perspective for me. It is a shame that only Ninja and Blue Mage got something new in the way of spells and abilities, but I can certainly live with that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

If you give someone an explanation of how FFXI works, and a level 75 character, they can very well be playing like the best within a short period of time. That will never happen in faster paced games, which require muscle memory, reacting to situations without having to think them through, understanding multiple options. It doesn't make FFXI a lesser game, it's just a much less spontaneous one than others.

After a little explanation and practice, anyone can play golf. It doesn't make them Tiger Woods or Golf an unskilled sport, now does it? But if I'm to go by the reasoning here, Iiger Woods has no skill. Everything has been practiced, there's not a lot to improvise and no real improvised muscle memory involved. He knows where to hit the ball and how to get it there, he's been through all the scenarios. The only randomized elements he faces are trees, wind direction, lakes and sand traps. If he's been to the course before, we can just narrow it down to wind direction.

So you should be able to step in an take his place after a few days of practice, right? You can be Tiger Woods.

That's what you're telling me.

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

BBQ: The problem with all your examples is that Smash Bros, Golf, etc require a lot of practice to be good at even if you know what you're doing. It took me at least a month to perfect the wavedash and even longer to perfect all the Fox techniques that derive from wavedash usage in Super Smash Bros Melee, for example. But I read up all those techniques in less than one night. Every minute detail was in my head, but I didn't have the muscle memory or finger dexterity to pull them off. It took me like 2 weeks to learn May's bread and butter combos in Guilty Gear XX ^Core without screwing up. And that was just to train my fingers to do them; that didn't mean I was using them intelligently in battle. Likewise, I could know how to be Tiger Woods, but that doesn't mean I possess the skill to be Tiger Woods. That's because Golf is a game/sport that requires skill (i.e. swinging, for example) in addition to knowledge.

There are no such requirements in FFXI. Like I said, I would wager all my math skills I'm already a good Lv.60 DRK without really having touched the job before. At most it would take me 10 minutes to get the hang of it. If I can hop straight into a job and play it just as well - or better! - than someone that's been playing the job for over 50 hours, the skill requirement is terribly low. Might seem arrogant of me to make the claim that I can do that in the first place, but that is the nature and the reality of the game. I think Lmnop brought up a pretty good point, it's probably largely in part to the minimal amount of improvisation involved.

There are no months of practice and dedication separating the scrubs from the Tiger Woods in FFXI. Some people play a job for years and still suck. Skill isn't a big factor, so they have absolutely nothing to show for their years of playing the job if they haven't gained knowledge.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

I think mage jobs require a lot more "skill" in terms of the game's skill. To be lightning fast and start casting Viruna while Tiamat is still readying Tebbad Wing, and etc. Not to wait until your PLD has to beg for Viruna. Things like that. I guess it's a matter of reflexes and knowing what TP moves inflict what, but that's what FFXI skill is about, it's about knowledge. We've had some WHMs who don't know anything about the game and status effects, and they're really annoying to work with. It's annoying to have to tell someone fifteen times that you're poisoned by the same move that did it the other fourteen times. That's what this game's variety of skill is about. Knowing.

There are different types of skill that different games require. This game requires knowledge and reflexes to be great. You can be decent and still hit a Silena macro when you need to, but knowing it's coming and being ready with the cast as soon as it happens? Skilled. And et cetera. People who realize the subtle nuances of their jobs. WHM isn't just curing. THF isn't just a TH whore. Etc. These are the people who are good at the game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

To be good at COR, I just can't always been sitting on 6s, scared to double up. Over time, you get a feel for the odds and also should learn the value of each buff you roll in the first place. This affects how you play in certain situations. If you hit the lucky numbers, you don't need to double up for something better, but if you constantly sit on lesser values and refuse to try for something better, your party might as well just get a BRD and be done with it.

Then there are the people that don't make use of the gun at all and just think so long as they buff and play curebot that they're "doing their job." Problem? You guys let them do that, so they think its always right to do that. Meanwhile, half the job is going to waste because they won't shoot the gun or perform quick draws.

Would they be more skilled for just doing those two things. Well, they'd need to have the resources. Obtaining said resources is one of the many skills this game requires. If you can't afford bullets and cards, don't learn the mechanics of ranged attacks and don't take risks, you're really just a half-assed BRD.

There is a tremendous lack of knowledge among many players in the game and without that knowledge, skill cannot be there for them.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

There is a tremendous lack of knowledge among many players in the game and without that knowledge, skill cannot be there for them.

Absolutely agreed.

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

BBQ: We're still just arguing semantics. You prefer to call certain things skill, I prefer to see it as applied knowledge. I don't see being good at Phantom Roll a skill. It's a simple mechanic based on probabilities, where timing, reflexes, or muscle memory do not affect the outcome. You just need to weigh the probabilities of getting an even better outcome and the probability of fucking up completely, using numbers. The decision-making process involved is pretty straightforward if you understand that. It is not a very dynamic process.

You call acquiring money a skill. I call it applied knowledge. Know what's profitable, go get it. You cuold argue that noticing trends on the AH involves practice and experience, I would be OK with calling that a skill. Reading that Avatar Blood sells for a lot and going to Pso'Xja regularly to farm it is not a skill.

To me, if it doesn't require significant decision-making/judgement calls, a reasonable amount of practice or prior experience, and it's a very static, repetitive procedure, I would prefer to call it applied knowledge than a proper skill. You can change the labels around all you want but the bulk of my argument remains the same - I could hop to any melee job right now and be good at it with no prior experience whatsoever. There's practically nothing to break the routine!

I will concede that playing mage jobs requires a lot more skill, though, like Aks brought up. This is probably due to the fact that their gameplay is not automated. They need to be intervening actively, and they have to be constantly making judgement calls to manage their resources (MP). Melee gameplay is automated, and stunning aside, it mostly boils down to applying your own self-buffs and spamming TP without crossing the hate line by a significant margin, which is a much easier process than people would like to admit. While a good deal of mage skills are simply reactive action, the recipe for success can't be broken down easily and is far more subject to change in different situations than a melee's gameplay.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

Then there are the people that don't make use of the gun at all and just think so long as they buff and play curebot that they're "doing their job." Problem? You guys let them do that, so they think its always right to do that. Meanwhile, half the job is going to waste because they won't shoot the gun or perform quick draws.

Was invited to a party today by a couple of friends who had two JPs in the party, one of them on Rdm who'd swapped from previously being the Cor as they'd lost their healer. Of course, they'd been Cor/Whm as that's all the JPs on Fenrir believe you should play. Anyway, I join the party and I could see the comments between the two JPs about /Nin and meleeing for TP. Five minutes in after I was smashing out Slug Shots, one of which for 1661 which resulted in a cheer from the JP War, while managing to land regular lucky rolls and sleep links, the rdm started giving me haste. I hope in some small way their conservative attitudes towards the class can be changed when they see what possibilities there are in playing the job to its fullest instead of a gimped bard with a gun.

As to the other point about rolling on 6s, I think once you open up Fold and Snake Eye you can be much more agressive in your rolling. Besides, a bust can often be quickly recovered from with a Fold / Random Deal combo.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

Of course, they'd been Cor/Whm as that's all the JPs anywhere believe you should play.

Fixed.

[Feba]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

After a little explanation and practice, anyone can play golf.

Errrrrrrrr. No. Not at the level that Tiger Woods and other professionals play at.

That takes a lot of training to get the movements precise enough, get your body to move in the correct way, and so on. Golf has a lot of planning, yes, but there is a ton of physical work involved. Maybe you're thinking of golf video games, but in the real world, you do not have a ton of control over exactly how the ball is launched and a lot of information on the precise conditions.

And yes, there is a lot more improvisation involved in golf than in FFXI. Reacting to weather, course hazards, and simply working your way out of bad shots.

I know you're predominantly an RPG gamer, and there's nothing wrong with that, but knowing what to do and being able to do it are very different things... but in RPGs, knowing what to do is almost entirely the basis of gameplay. You'd have to be an idiot to not be able to do most of the things you can do in most RPGs, because it's as simple as opening up a menu.

For example, if I tell someone who is completely new to FFXI how to cure people "Open up magic menu, select cure, target the person you want to heal, press enter", they could be doing it almost instantly. And the same applies to everything from the most basic of abilities (auto-attack) up to the most complicated and high level. There's nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't take much of any skill to play.

Probably the most complicated things to do in FFXI are timing related abilities; SC, MB, and keeping shadows up. But SC/MB are incredibly simple, even in the most complicated circumstances (AM MB, for example), and keeping shadows up isn't that hard. Even juggling hate back and forth between two characters with Ichi is pretty simple. You could call sneaking around a skill, especially if done without invis/sneak, though that's not exactly a common skill. It takes awareness of your surroundings, knowing how far you have to stay away, knowing where you can escape to, how to escape to it, knowing how to react if your spells start to wear off (if you are using spells/items), and where you need to get to in the environment. Juggling buffs is arguably a skill, although it's still pretty simple to pick up. By and large, though, FFXI is a game where your play quality is almost entirely derived from your knowledge of what to do, and not your skill to be able to pull it off. When compared with games where death and victory could be divided by the action taken inside a few frames, FFXI has huge windows to act within, and doesn't require much in the way of timing.

[Raydeus]

Re: Version Update Sneak Peek (07/17/2009)

Who would've thought Skill was about knowing what to do and when to do it, while having the physical capability to actually translate that into action without screwing up.