Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Drk update wish. theres is still time >.<;



TP gained through damage taken like 1tp - 10hp lost would be amazing. And if the hp lost through Soul Eater would count as well for a great tp return on Guillotine or Insergency!. Drk magic should be instant cast since it takes away from your painfully slow attacks.

and would aso be broken as hell ;p

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

{describing the way SMN worked in earlier FFs; I don't know why this board doesn't support nested quotes, it's really easy to lose the context of a discussion without them}
No, in fact, almost never. Generally the avatar does one special attack and then vanishes again. Hmm, that sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?

That's a horribly perverted way of describing it. The system as we know it was not designed that way and you very well know it!

Why do you think that? Summoning Magic only skilled up on the act of summoning (originally), keeping the avatar out has high cost and low benefit, and the relatively powerful avatar abilities don't require it to have been out for any length of time. It's true that summon-BP-dismiss isn't literally one action like it was in some earlier games, but it's clearly one possible playstyle, and one with a lot to recommend it in terms of MP efficiency.

If the devs had meant avatars to be kept out constantly like BST pets or wyverns, they wouldn't have imposed such high perpetuation costs and the no-resting restriction, which are obviously intended to *prevent* the avatar from being out all the time. Meanwhile, actual summoning costs almost nothing and takes only a couple seconds, making it cheap to summon and dismiss frequently.

If anything, it's the later introduction of staves and carby mitts and all the other -perp gear we have now and several rounds of perp cost reduction that warped the original design of the job (not to mention the introduction of Fenrir, who has lower base perp cost than the celestials and does more melee damage IIRC).

Whether the changes are good or bad is a matter of opinion, but it's hard to argue with the fact that the early design of SMN was much more like FF III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, and IX than it was like X. The fact that avatar melee is possible does not mean that SE intended it to be done frequently or in all situations. It does work quite well for soloing and small groups, which have been improved several times - e.g. increase of exp value of EP-DC, NPCs, Signet adjustments to small group exp multipliers, FoV. While there are certainly some jobs that use the same tactics in every possible situation, I don't see why SMN should necessarily be expected to be one of them.

(Disclaimer: I'm only SMN40. But I know a few high level SMNs and they don't seem to need to rely on avatar melee to contribute to any event they take part in.)

[admx9]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

yes and no becuse it can only be used every 5 minutes and if you where to ws again i doubt anything other than accomplice would save you. this would also lead to drk being able to self SC. Forget about spell cast and recast this would put Drk where it should be On TOP what other job puts itself in harms way for the sake of damage. peaole would even fully merit SE.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

yes and no becuse it can only be used every 5 minutes and if you where to ws again i doubt anything other than accomplice would save you. this would also lead to drk being able to self SC. Forget about spell cast and recast this would put Drk where it should be On TOP

Except that's a rather dumb way to play. Regardless of the fact that Souleater is only on a 5 minute recast, most DRKs tend to pull hate often enough that they tend to not need it anyways. Also, getting yourself killed just for that one spike damage WS is a complete waste of a party slot; you'll waste more time waiting for the DRK to unweaken than to find a rep for the idiot to begin with.

what other job puts itself in harms way for the sake of damage.

Samurai. Overwhelm. No spot in a fight more dangerous than right in front of the mob.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

yes and no becuse it can only be used every 5 minutes and if you where to ws again i doubt anything other than accomplice would save you. this would also lead to drk being able to self SC. Forget about spell cast and recast this would put Drk where it should be On TOP what other job puts itself in harms way for the sake of damage. peaole would even fully merit SE.

SAM does and so does DRG, and what? DRK on top where is should be? how long have you played?.....


Every job is good at what it does, and no job should be "at the top" or no one would ever play other jobs.

[DakAttack]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

yes and no becuse it can only be used every 5 minutes and if you where to ws again i doubt anything other than accomplice would save you. this would also lead to drk being able to self SC. Forget about spell cast and recast this would put Drk where it should be On TOP what other job puts itself in harms way for the sake of damage. peaole would even fully merit SE.

No job puts itself in harm's way for the sake of damage. Death means the abrupt end to dealing damage.

Besides, GG eating your own soul. Depending on how you mean for this to work, you might WS yourself to death.

[admx9]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Every one and their mothers is leveling SAM on my server, even i have considered it. and to answer your question 4 months after the NA ps2 release so 7-8 years.
WS yourself to death doesnt sound like a bad idea is a risk you take for the damage output.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

No job puts itself in harm's way for the sake of damage. Death means the abrupt end to dealing damage.

Besides, GG eating your own soul. Depending on how you mean for this to work, you might WS yourself to death.

haha DRG/DRK Penta Thrust + last Resort + souleater.... always a good time ^.^

[admx9]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Super jump ftw in that scenario.

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Every one and their mothers is leveling SAM on my server, even i have considered it. and to answer your question 4 months after the NA ps2 release so 7-8 years.
WS yourself to death doesnt sound like a bad idea is a risk you take for the damage output.

.... that would be about 6 years not 7-8 ;p but anyway..... WSing yourself to dead is NEVER good.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

That aside, Souleater is on a 6 minute timer, not 5.

Possible reference to 666? Wouldn't be surprised. Magus's HP in Chrono Trigger is 6666.

[Takelli]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Drk update wish. theres is still time >.<;



TP gained through damage taken like 1tp - 10hp lost would be amazing. And if the hp lost through Soul Eater would count as well for a great tp return on Guillotine or Insergency!. Drk magic should be instant cast since it takes away from your painfully slow attacks.

This would be so broken, especially if it applied to all the jobs. Omg... Pld Spamming Savage Blade? Hahaha.... Be nice to see, but still broken.

And, the Soul Eater thing too... You'd kill your self, if not through Weapon Skill Spamming, then through hate.

Just like a Drk that kept getting killed in my last party because of Soul Eater, and Last Resort + Berserk + Guillotine. Either got killed by Hp taken away, or By pulling hate. and he even did it when he was weakened too...

[admx9]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

6 or 7-8 either i have played long enough to know. I i dont have to go on google to look it up

[Kailea]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

6 or 7-8 either i have played long enough to know. I i dont have to go on google to look it up

well its just the high horse you place DRK on, made me wonder how longed you played, but if you have been playing that long..... ok *shrugs*

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (07/09/2009)

Regarding the topic of avatars: While it's true that it's literally fruitless to leave an avatar out, I'm not convinced it wasn't part of the original design. For starters there's perp cost down gear, and more importantly there's the fact that many Avatar abilities are powered up with more TP - TP that is lost as soon as you dismiss the avatar. It wouldn't be too radical a thought. There were reasons to keep avatars out in FFX as well. Valefor was borderline overpowered on things where its Sonic Wings attack or whatever that ultra low delay Quick Hit clone was called was effective. Granted, later on many bosses had Banish to OHKO your Avatars, but that they were still pretty formidable characters as party members.

I think they just fucked up in the design phase like they did so many other aspects of the game. They don't provide enough incentives to leave them out, just like they don't provide enough incentives to leave ToAU camps or try mobs that aren't harmless.