Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

[Sekighara]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

@Coinspinner
I under stand what Omgwtfbbqkitten means. A Blm should not only cast the highest tier of the mobs elemental weakness just like a warrior shouldn't warcry everytime it is up just to ws at the beginning of the fight before the tank can gather enough hate. Or a Drk knowing they are crossing the hate line and catching up to the pld to pop last resort for a ws. What should happen in both of these the war should pop war cry and wait or pop it later near half life and the tank has claimed alot of hate. The drk should hold off on the ws or pop it with out last resort to not risk hate switching. Blm should cast off elemental weakness and lower tier spells to deal at dmg that is around the average that each melee is going and then pop a big spell where the dmg threshold will kill the mob or is at a time when the tank has all hate tools up for activation.

@Vyuru

I personally like bio in all forms. It lowers attack, it tick higher depending on your int, and it will overwrites itself. But the problem is it overwrites dia as well which caused me to get angry tells as well as threats to be kicked because it is counter productive to killing the mob and party chats saying the spell is useless. Ironically this will come from a whm and a pld majorally even though dia is the dd mentality of killing things quickly before it can do more dmg compared to reducing dmg dealt to save mp. But what you going to do other then leave the party if they do not believe the facts that are presented. Now I am not saying dia does not have its uses for instance dark element mobs, high vit mobs, crabs, beetles and pld type mobs that do not have resistance to light based magic (her is looking at you orcs) . But you know people if it helps here it must help everywhere.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Yeah Pre-ToAU there was a time where parties wouldn't go anywhere without at least 1 BLM, similar to how RNG was put up on such a high pedestal.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Bio says hi.

Not over my Dia. >.>

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Oh wow, I completely turned the NIN thread into a BLM thread...that wasn't intended at all...

P.S. There's no particular reason why nukers should get a raw deal in campaign, so if they currently do, then I would support changes to the campaign exp system so that they don't. Everyone should have the option of campaigning for moderate amounts of exp if they have nothing better to do.

There's several reasons why nukers don't do as well in Campaign. Even if they were to raise the amount of EXP gotten from nuking so that it is at least on par with meleeing, BLM would still get the short end of the deal in many ways.

- They can't buff other players or NPCs as easily. Their innate enhancing magic, Spike spells, cannot be casted on other players. And, while they can get Protect II and Shell II from a subjob, it will not overwrite a player or NPC that already has III or IV (in effect, you'd have to race other jobs and NPCs to casting them first, a race that is actually impossible for WHM, RDM, PLD, and SCH to lose)

- They can't tank. They can grab hate. But they can't actually stand their and takes hits like I'm willing to bet virtually every other job has a way of doing in their own ways. They can Gravity kite, but Campaign rewards damage taken, not damage averted (which really should be addressed somehow). EDIT: Looking back, then again neither do BRDs, RNGs, or CORs. But BRD and CORs can do a variety of things. RNGs? I don't know. I've from some that RNG, in a way, would benefit from some update attention too.

- They can crowd control. I've done it on SCH with some success and got nice EXP. But I don't enjoy doing it because it's probably the most involving task. Not only that, but other players do not make it easy to do (I'm talking about people who attack Bound and Slept mobs).

- If skillchaining in all the chaos that sometimes can happen when you have 5 people on one mob is hard to do, magic bursting is downright impossible.

- They have some of the least ability to melee in the game through a lack of natural traits, abilities, skill, and gear.

Campaign EXP is determined more on how much action you can fit into a short amount of time. And that's something that BLM, a job that is practically designed to wait for the appropriate moments to act (spike damage, Stun, or otherwise), can do.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

On BG someone once said the best way for BLM to get xp in Campaign is to buff yourself, run up to a bunch of mobs, cast a -ga spell, and then run. Die, RR, rest for 5 minutes, and repeat. The dying lowers your xp slightly, but you get points for damage taken so it evens out, and the -ga spell will do a significant chunk of damage to get a lot of exp.

It's kinda gimping your way through it, but it works.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

On BG someone once said the best way for BLM to get xp in Campaign is to buff yourself, run up to a bunch of mobs, cast a -ga spell, and then run. Die, RR, rest for 5 minutes, and repeat. The dying lowers your xp slightly, but you get points for damage taken so it evens out, and the -ga spell will do a significant chunk of damage to get a lot of exp.

It's kinda gimping your way through it, but it works.

I know a PLD in his 60's that did that...I'd say "Where's the fun in that", but then I know not everyone actively enjoys Campaign the way I do...

Actually, he did it on his BLU too in a way. He just aggroed a bunch of Yagudo NINs and stood there while they threw darts and Ninjutsu at him while he just cured himself. Granted he had Phalanx II and Refresh because I was there, but I think he actually got more EXP than I did.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Yeah, I hate it, if I could get a good chunk of XP doing some -ga spelling and dying, I'd take it.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Damn well better if they have no defensive abilities up or can't get them up, such as Utsu: Ichi.

I did not mean to suggest otherwise. See my other post.

Forgive me while I fall out of my chair laughing....

Pre~ToAU:

I was there. I know. But players will and should use game mechanics to their advantage. It's Square Enix's job to balance shit, not ours. Before the multi-hit WS TP nerf BLM was even worse off than it is now. I was there. I know. Scales tend to swing a bit before things are balanced.

Also manaburn was not so prevalent or so much better than SC+MB back then, and I have sure as heck never sneered at any kind of party. The sort who did mostly moved to whatever job became the next flavor of the month, I think.

Ya'll have excellent debuffs.

The ones BLM gets other jobs are better at, save maybe Bio 2's DOT effect or the Shock line. Bio being rather situational at best (Dia?), the others being iffy in terms of cost effectiveness. I have no way of knowing how much Choke or Frost is helping the melees. I used to cast it since it is low enmity but it always felt like frittering away MP.

Crowd control is another thing entirely.

Bio says hi. Sure, it may not beat the Sch's newfangled DoTs, but the Bio line of spells is still a very potent spell, stack with the Poison line. Requires time in order to get more out of it, but that's the tradeoff isn't it?

Regen always gets all the time it needs. A DOT does not. I explained that in the part of my post you did not quote. They are not comparable in this situation, only in the sort of long fight that you don't do for exp.

And yeah, Dia.

@Coinspinner
I under stand what Omgwtfbbqkitten means. A Blm should not only cast the highest tier of the mobs elemental weakness just like a warrior shouldn't warcry everytime it is up just to ws at the beginning of the fight before the tank can gather enough hate. Or a Drk knowing they are crossing the hate line and catching up to the pld to pop last resort for a ws. What should happen in both of these the war should pop war cry and wait or pop it later near half life and the tank has claimed alot of hate. The drk should hold off on the ws or pop it with out last resort to not risk hate switching. Blm should cast off elemental weakness and lower tier spells to deal at dmg that is around the average that each melee is going and then pop a big spell where the dmg threshold will kill the mob or is at a time when the tank has all hate tools up for activation.

That was a common tactic back in the day, and should really be the standard at mid-levels. There are upsides and downsides to that tactic, like any other.

+ You keep hate manageable. (Edit: Predictable.)
+ You can squeeze out a little bit more damage per fight, so long as your MP lasts.
- You use MP less efficiently.
- You spend more time standing, less time resting.
- Recast timers can become problematic as your "low end" spells start to be tier III. Fights tend to be short around those levels. At that point you wouldn't be "keeping up" with tier II, I don't think.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

The sort who did mostly moved to whatever job became the next flavor of the month, I think.

This.

And while we're technically off-topic here, I saw the cutscene that your sig came from just a short while ago. >.>

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

@Ketaru: Any thread about job adjustments inevitably turns into a thread about jobs that the people on the thread think need adjustment. Right now BLM is high on that list, apparently.

I've gotten great exp after kiting in Campaign on RDM, even though I only got hit a few times. I think there is a reward for having hate, regardless of whether the mob manages to do anything to you or not (or maybe it was just all the debuffs/CC I cast during kiting, or the curing when I did get hit; but both of those can be duplicated by BLMs). Further testing in this area would be useful, but my experience seems inconsistent with the idea that Campaign doesn't reward damage avoidance.

Also, I thought that exp for buffing was nerfed into the ground a few updates back, so BLM's inability to buff others (other than regen if your SJ allows) wouldn't really be a big deal from a strictly Campaign perspective. (Some new BLM buffs might be a solution to the BLM-in-parties-without-overpowering-manaburns problem, though, depending on how they work.)

You might also try loading up a mob other players are fighting with enfeebles and DoTs, aspiring it, and then moving on to another mob and repeating, if nukes don't give much reward for their MP cost and your job sucks at melee. Enfeebles and DoTs are cheap and IIRC all campaign mobs have MP regardless of job. Since this is a very low hate strategy you could do it as /SCH without unreasonable risk. In my experience, melees rarely leave their target unless it dies or they do.

Or of course you could cast a lot of cures and regens powered by sublimation and aspir. It wouldn't be very exciting but it might be good exp.

People, including BLMs, may be to some extent captive to strategies they know, and not willing or not able to adapt and create new strategies for new situations like Campaign. It wouldn't be the first time strategies developed for (and effective in) one context have been overgeneralized and used in another context where they are not appropriate.

[Ketaru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Also, I thought that exp for buffing was nerfed into the ground a few updates back, so BLM's inability to buff others (other than regen if your SJ allows) wouldn't really be a big deal from a strictly Campaign perspective. (Some new BLM buffs might be a solution to the BLM-in-parties-without-overpowering-manaburns problem, though, depending on how they work.)

You might be right. I'm under the impression right now that is it casting buffs on yourself that got nerfed. I've usually attributed my own good experiences in Campaign to the things I do though, like prior to mobs showing up, I'll cast Protect/Shell on people in the area. And once the fighting starts, I often cast Haste on people that look like they're competent tanks. That's when I go RDM. When I go BST though, I often sub /PLD. And at that point, I usually try to beat others to casting Protect/Shell on players and NPCs first though.

People, including BLMs, may be to some extent captive to strategies they know, and not willing or not able to adapt and create new strategies for new situations like Campaign. It wouldn't be the first time strategies developed for (and effective in) one context have been overgeneralized and used in another context where they are not appropriate.

That is true. I was mostly referring to nuking as a role one can play in Campaign. If I go as SCH, nuking is really something I do very sparingly (like...once-everytime-Enlightenment-is-up kind of sparingly). It's just too MP intensive and unrewarding otherwise...On the other hand, except for those odd NMs that have to be kited, like the Warmarchine, nuking is really something that is a bit unnecessary in Campaign.

[Vyuru]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

Actually you did mean to suggest that no one expects melee who have hate and can't/won't get defensive abilities up to turn around in order to help lose hate faster, whereupon 'Kitten, TGM and myself all chimed in with we damn well expect melee to turn around to help lose hate instead of continuing to melee.

It's Square Enix's job to balance shit, not ours.

It is our job to be responsible and not to exploit the game mechanics however.

Also manaburn was not so prevalent or so much better than SC+MB back then

If that's what you think go read the threads on Alla ages ago about Blm refusing to join normal exp parties.

and I have sure as heck never sneered at any kind of party.

You may not have, doesn't mean that other people didn't. When the majority of a particular job does something, then unfortunately everyone in that job gets labeled the same way.

A DOT does not. I explained that in the part of my post you did not quote.

However it is not unusual to have fights lasting around the one minute marker, especially pre lvl 50ish, so you can't just lay a blanket statement that fights don't last long enough to make a DoT worthwhile. At one minute, and assuming Bio II and Poison II, you get twenty ticks worth of damage which equals about what, 15 x 20 = 300 + initial damage from Bio II? Assuming a lvl 43 Blm and a 5/tick damage Bio II. All of that for only 74mp, 3mp less than Blizzard II costs, and just how much damage does that do at lvl 43? Of course the longer the fight, and the longer the DoT lasts, the better it is.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Actually you did mean to suggest that no one expects melee who have hate and can't/won't get defensive abilities up to turn around in order to help lose hate faster, whereupon 'Kitten, TGM and myself all chimed in with we damn well expect melee to turn around to help lose hate instead of continuing to melee.

This is silly. Nobody expects a melee DD to turn around and stop damaging the enemy to keep their hate generation down. They expect them to sub NIN and blink away the damage. You would boot a dude who periodically turned around and did nothing, or at least complain.

I may have done, but did not mean. Poor excuse, I know, sorry. Perhaps if I'd said "didn't engage till the enemy was half dead" or some such thing. Anyway.

You'd better have defensive skills or gear swap. If you can't or that's insufficient, then sure, turn off the damage. But if you're seeking to avoid ever being targeted altogether then I think that'd a problem, since the other guys are proceeding as normal and trading hate without you. It's normal to get targeted once in a while and players are expected be capable of dealing with it, is what I'm getting at.

If that's not actually how it's done, then fine, whatever. I'm sure you all know better than I. It made a throwaway comment meant to lead into the rest of the post. That's just not what I've seen in practice and not the impression I get from reading other posts. I could see constant turning being necessary if you have one guy who is dealing a lot more damage than the others, but I have no idea if that is common or what.

It is our job to be responsible and not to exploit the game mechanics however.

Explain "exploit". If it's not a violation of ToS you should make use of it. Making an imbalanced party focused around a particular strength or tactic is not an exploit.

You may not have, doesn't mean that other people didn't. When the majority of a particular job does something, then unfortunately everyone in that job gets labeled the same way.

Wrongfully, even if that's just human nature. Then there's the people who picked up the job later on weren't part of it, but have to deal with the way things are now. Two wrongs don't make a right.

However it is not unusual to have fights lasting around the one minute marker, especially pre lvl 50ish, so you can't just lay a blanket statement that fights don't last long enough to make a DoT worthwhile. At one minute, and assuming Bio II and Poison II, you get twenty ticks worth of damage which equals about what, 15 x 20 = 300 + initial damage from Bio II? Assuming a lvl 43 Blm and a 5/tick damage Bio II. All of that for only 74mp, 3mp less than Blizzard II costs, and just how much damage does that do at lvl 43? Of course the longer the fight, and the longer the DoT lasts, the better it is.

Pre-50 BLM has little trouble with invites, and still integrates pretty well with melee jobs. Also Dia is generally preferred, people do bitch to mages who cast Bio, heh. Theoretically it's good, but limiting it to the level range where Poison II is available and BLM is still wanted, it's a problematic spell because BLM has C enfeeble, and almost certainly won't have enfeebling gear and definitely not a Water Staff.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

It's any buff actually. you get 1 EXP per song or job ability or what have you, regardless of the target.

BRD songs I think still can get up to 6 EXP per if you buff everyone in a full party.