Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

[Firewind]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

SE sure know how to take "system" from other games and make it their own. (just like level sync!)

This union can actually be see in Warhammer online. Taking part of a battle in a keep will earn you rights to "random" loots base on your performance higher rating you get.

If it's popular and it works why not?

[Nuriko]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

If the guy next to you is taking all the hits (and consequently if he dies you're next) then you should damn well bloody cure him a little. Makes me sick to keep the nastier mobs off mages only to die from lack of support (though I get a good laugh when the mob turns to their negligent asses and drops them in just a few hits; serves them right) I'm a team player.

If I'm on WHM in Campaign, I tend to make good use of MP-restoring WS unless I don't need the MP (which usually means I couldn't find anybody who needed a heal). Beyond that gained MP (maybe a cure V a minute, or a bit more), you're on your own. I'm not resting for the sake of somebody else's XP at the expense of my own.

[Firewind]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

How are they going to account for participation levels though? Will it penalize anyone who can cure but doesn't? I know Campaign is the only real outlet for mages to melee safely but there are way too many who just neglect their mage duties altogether during campaign. I for one, hope this system beats these assfucks into the ground and screws them over hard.

If the guy next to you is taking all the hits (and consequently if he dies you're next) then you should damn well bloody cure him a little. Makes me sick to keep the nastier mobs off mages only to die from lack of support (though I get a good laugh when the mob turns to their negligent asses and drops them in just a few hits; serves them right) I'm a team player.

Are you going to tank the mobs then instead of just hitting them?
Are you going to take hate to save the healer when a simple Cure II will tear hate from most melees in campaign?
Are you willing to stop hitting a mob to cut your XP because I have to rest to heal you again?
Are you going to give me an actual location when you send /tells asking for a raise or cure?
Are you going to voke mobs off me because I took hate from curing someone so I can actualy do my fucking job?
Are you going to actually tell me where you are so I can -na spell you?
Are you going to stop HITTING a mob that I just reposed and actually voke it off me before waking it up and letting it kill me so I can't cure you?
Are you going to pull a mob out of the way of my body so I can actually reraise without dying seconds later to an AoE spam?
Are you going to accept that you just might not have even loaded on my fucking screen when you bitch and moan at me for not curing?
Are you going to accept that mages are in campaign for XP first and will get thier measly 60XP/Raise capped at 200 and 700 capped XP from cures within the first few minutes of the battle?
Are you going to accept that the reason why we don't buff you anymore is because buffs on others aren't even worth the MP cost due to the huge XP nerf on buffing others? Heck SMN and BRD buffs don't even GIVE you exp anymore.
Are you going to stop spamming "ZZZ", "ZZZ", "OMGHAELS!", "OH MY GAWD I HAVE A 1HP/TICK POISON AT FULL HP I'M GONNA DIEZ!111oneone" in /tell when I ride past a Campaign battle on a chocobo when I'm busy going to another event?

As it stands in campaign I gain more XP from walking into AoE, walking out then curing myself until I hit the extremely low caps for both of them then just meleeing for the rest of the battle considering that the damage cap is HUGE compared to the healing and buffing caps. Is it my fault that SE have gimped mages in campaign to the point that half of our spells aren't even worth using on the caster. Is it my fault that if I play a WHM as a WHM in campaign the following will happen in every battle:

1) I run out of MP and have to rest while you keep beating on the mob and continue gaining XP
2) The person I cured is fighting a mob that inevitably isn't tanked and because you super uber epeen damage DDs are too scared to have a campaign mob even LOOK at you funny I will inevitably have my insides turned into the next pretty Beastman Forces banner while you can still keep hitting the fucking mob the exp while I have to rest until weakness wears.
3) The melee I just cured will charge off and link every mob in the zone meaning that all of those mobs will come rushing over to me and kill everything around me after a minute or so.

[Ziero]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Are you going to tank the mobs then instead of just hitting them?
Are you going to take hate to save the healer when a simple Cure II will tear hate from most melees in campaign?
Are you willing to stop hitting a mob to cut your XP because I have to rest to heal you again?
Are you going to give me an actual location when you send /tells asking for a raise or cure?
Are you going to voke mobs off me because I took hate from curing someone so I can actualy do my fucking job?
Are you going to actually tell me where you are so I can -na spell you?
Are you going to stop HITTING a mob that I just reposed and actually voke it off me before waking it up and letting it kill me so I can't cure you?
Are you going to pull a mob out of the way of my body so I can actually reraise without dying seconds later to an AoE spam?
Are you going to accept that you just might not have even loaded on my fucking screen when you bitch and moan at me for not curing?
Are you going to accept that mages are in campaign for XP first and will get thier measly 60XP/Raise capped at 200 and 700 capped XP from cures within the first few minutes of the battle?
Are you going to accept that the reason why we don't buff you anymore is because buffs on others aren't even worth the MP cost due to the huge XP nerf on buffing others? Heck SMN and BRD buffs don't even GIVE you exp anymore.
Are you going to stop spamming "ZZZ", "ZZZ", "OMGHAELS!", "OH MY GAWD I HAVE A 1HP/TICK POISON AT FULL HP I'M GONNA DIEZ!111oneone" in /tell when I ride past a Campaign battle on a chocobo when I'm busy going to another event?

I do it all the time, War in full Def layout (as crappy as it is) spamming voke or Thf in full eva set
I voke when it's up on War and SA+WS as Thf to pull hate. Generally speaking, you have to want hate to get it.
If I'm about to die and someone else has hate you're damn right I'll pull back. Can't get EXP when you're dead.
I never ask in /tell for raise or cure, but when I /shout for someone else I always give <pos> and say please!
If I can voke, I will. If I can't, I'll do what I can to get hate.
Again, I personally don't ask anyone for anything in Campaign, especially if they're no where near me.
Honestly, I have effects of others filtered so I don't know if you reposed it or not. But generally I only attack mobs that are claimed when 2-3 others are on it. Otherwise, I get my own.
If I can do it safely, then yes. If not, then no.
I never bitched at anyone for not curing me, even if I was tanking the mob that killed me then turned and killed you.
We all get better exp when we're alive, and we have a better chance to stay that way if we work together.
If I get buffs, I (|Thank You|), if not, I wasn't expecting them to begin with.
Again, I never send tells, Sleep is easy to deal with, and I carry meds for things like Poison and close calls. Only time I'll bug someone is if I'm dead after campaign and no one else is around.

So, what do I win for not asking the mages to do anything for me in Campaign while going out of my way to help them when I can?

Also, while I agree the low caps on cures/buffs suck for campaign, in the end it's really hard to balance. While increasing those caps may help Whm and Rdm some, it would also boost the exp of any class that could heal. Including Dnc, /Dnc and especially Pld. So raising the healing cap would help, but it still wouldn't make you actually better if all you did was heal. Campaign rewards are based on all actions you take in a fight, so those with more abilities can get more exp, which Whm and Rdm are pretty well set. They can do everything in campaign fairly efficiently and reap far more rewards then a melee who just swings their weapon. Again, the only classes who really suffer are Blm, Sch and Smn, because they have absolutely no melee capacity. Increasing the Magic Damage caps could definitely help those classes without overpowering other jobs, but then they would still be limited by MP usage.

Campaign is one of those things that SE came so close to getting so right, but the few glaring issues always pop up. Especially after every subsequent update where they improve one thing and horribly nerf another.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Well said, Firewind.

It's pretty damn hard to cure people you can't even fucking see.

[Ketaru]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

How are they going to account for participation levels though? Will it penalize anyone who can cure but doesn't? I know Campaign is the only real outlet for mages to melee safely but there are way too many who just neglect their mage duties altogether during campaign. I for one, hope this system beats these assfucks into the ground and screws them over hard.

If the guy next to you is taking all the hits (and consequently if he dies you're next) then you should damn well bloody cure him a little. Makes me sick to keep the nastier mobs off mages only to die from lack of support (though I get a good laugh when the mob turns to their negligent asses and drops them in just a few hits; serves them right) I'm a team player.

Campaign isn't "the only real outlet for mages to melee safely." It's the only real outlet for mages to have their full breadth of skills leveled and actually be rewarded for doing so. It's the only real outlet for mages to have melee gear and know that it's being put to good use.

I'd say I'm sorry that the mages on you server are so negligent, but I'm not seeing as you want such a douchebag outcome to happen to those of us who just want to utilize underutilize aspects of our jobs. From what I have seen, mages are generally considerate and mindful of what's going on in the fight. They often heal me when Stoneskin goes down. They often Haste me on my BST. I never assume these things are anything more than acts of charity though.

And don't give me the "Team Player" BS. We all know that if melee gives some of the better EXP in Campaign, tanking gives better EXP still. I'm all too well aware of this. That's why I do anything to get hate. I spam sleep on mobs that I don't really want slept. I open fights with Weaponskills, Convert, and Cure to full. I cure other people fighting, knowing full well they're capable of curing themselves. I pull mobs from the fort while others are still fighting with CourierCarrie, build up sufficient hate, and by the time people are done fighting the previous mob, Snarl+Flash is generally sufficient to keep it for the rest of the fight (this might "look" like I'm holding a mob off the fort, but I freely admit there are ulterior motives involved). I do whatever I can to make sure the mob's attention is directed at me (or pet), because I know that's how you get EXP in Campaign.

I'd go on, but I'd have to make a parallel example of your whole "Ninja as assassin from the shadows" tidbit from the other thread to show you how wrong you are about Campaign attaching enforced roles to how jobs play.

EDIT: Aw I'll do it anyway. WHM is loosely based on the D&D notion of the Cleric class. Cleric's most unique contribution is that it is the best healing spells, although other jobs are capable of healing to a degree. However, they're also capable of wielding maces and shields, as well as using holy magic, both offensively and defensively. They also specialize in combat against undead. WHMs can use hammers. In fact, of the conventionally backline mages of this game, they actually have the highest skill with a weapon. Not only that, but they have their own weaponskill...a very good one in fact. They have an array of light based magic that is not just for healing, but also Flash (a spell designed for tanking if there ever was one), Repose, and the Banish series, which has the added effect of removing skeleton's weapon resistance temporarily. Notably, they are also the only mage in this game, even including BLU, PLD, and DRK, to not have a native method of restoring their own MP. If they are to perform to their full versatility above, don't you think curing is something that is supposed to be done sparingly?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

I like the parallel of White Mages to D&D Clerics. Despite being the most apt in the healing role, the stigma of Cleric being "just a healing job" is even more false there than it is for White Mage in FFXI.

[Malacite]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Well, when I did my WHM in campaign I raised and cured as much as I could because that's my fucking job. Obviously you can't save everybody, but I do what I can and usually get a lot thankful responses too.
I wasn't getting as much EXP as I'd like but then I still don't have Hexa Strike or Spirit Taker.

[Armando]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Well, when I did my WHM in campaign I raised and cured as much as I could because that's my fucking job.

You make it sound like people shouldn't be going into Campaign as self-sufficient as possible. I appreciate any and all heals that come my way, regardless of source, but I certainly don't expect anyone to keep an eye on me, and I respect any mage that goes into Campaign solely looking to maximize their own EXP and AN, because that's mainly what I'm trying to do as well.

If you want to be philanthropist, be my guest, but do realize that you're doing charity work. It's every man for himself out there. If we're not in a party, I have no obligation to you nor you to me - even if "that's your job." Note that that concept has nothing to do with being a dick, either.

[Mhurron]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Well, when I did my WHM in campaign I raised and cured as much as I could because that's my fucking job. Obviously you can't save everybody, but I do what I can and usually get a lot thankful responses too.
I wasn't getting as much EXP as I'd like but then I still don't have Hexa Strike or Spirit Taker.

Notice the past tense there. Why don't you do charity work in Campaign any more?

WHM role in a party is as a healer.

[Ketaru]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Well, when I did my WHM in campaign I raised and cured as much as I could because that's my fucking job. Obviously you can't save everybody, but I do what I can and usually get a lot thankful responses too.
I wasn't getting as much EXP as I'd like but then I still don't have Hexa Strike or Spirit Taker.

WHM is your "job". Healer is a "role". The two are not the same. SCH is a "job" that often falls into the "role" of mainhealer. But they can also just as easily fall into the "role" of nuker. You know about how group dynamics often work, then you also know that, most of the time, despite the fact the "job" can do both, the SCH never actually does both with dedication. A nuker SCH can use the fact it can cure to give an emergency cure. But a SCH can never fill the "role" of both a mainhealer and a nuker because the MP resources and the time to just isn't there. A WHM that is subbing /WAR will not be able to cover the role of mainhealer because they inherently lack the ability to regain MP. Therefore, MP is a resource a WHM/WAR has to choose to spend between themselves and others. They can function perfectly well as an emergency healer, but that would necessitate that the person who needs the healing has a primary means of getting HP back. In addition, if they are using a strong club, they do not have the most MP efficient heals because they lose on some of the potency given by weapons such as Light Staff. If a WHM/WAR gears properly though, it can fit the role of a tank or even a modest damage dealer with some magical utilities. Nobody thinks you're on the moral high ground because you traded more EXP for pats on the back from others. A WHM/SMN that is healing a tank can just as easily be doing it out of necessity to survive because they are not equipped to (gearwise and buildwise). What reason would a WHM/RDM, with Phalanx and Sleep at practically full efficiency, have to heal anybody other than charity?

[Karinya]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

In a party, the whole party gets the same exp, so it's the whole party's responsibility *and* self-interest to do whatever maximizes that exp. Tanks hold hate and use gear/abilities to reduce their damage taken, healers heal and remove harmful status, pullers bring in an appropriate rate of mobs for the party to fight, support jobs buff and debuff, DDs try not to go over hate and get their face eaten... Ok, I'm idealizing on that last one (compared to current practice), but you get the point. The performance of the whole party determines the exp rate of the whole party, and if someone doesn't pull their weight, it's up to the leader to boot and replace them to improve the exp rate of the whole party.

In an HNM fight, the whole alliance or LS either wins and gets drops or loses and gets nada; pretty much the same goes for Dynamis or Limbus. The rewards are shared by everyone according to LS rules, so it's in everyone's interest to do whatever best promotes the shared goals of the group.

In campaign, different people get different rewards based on their individual actions. That makes it every man for himself.

Or, in short, WHMs will cure you more when your damage does something useful for them. SE *could* implement exp-sharing within parties/alliances (or even unions...) in Campaign. Then anyone who wants more heals can *invite a healer* and cut them in for a share of the exp, like they do in a party. But SE prefers not to do that, perhaps to increase the variety of different content, while at the same time making actions other than melee and tanking have very low return to the player performing them; so you can either go with a friend that doesn't mind you leeching off their heals while giving them nothing in return, come prepared for self-sufficiency, or hang out next to the Salvemixers (or, on the right battlefield, Pixies).

The more I play MMOs, the more I find that players are a liquid that take the shape of the incentives the developers create for them. (Or, in other words, the fundamental attribution error actually is an error. Imagine that.) Campaign's incentives are different from exp or traditional endgame content; therefore so is the player behavior that fills it.

[Malacite]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Notice the past tense there. Why don't you do charity work in Campaign any more?

WHM role in a party is as a healer.

Already beat Maat, moving on to the next job. Really, I'm just sick of the general "me me me" attitude (and I don't just mean in-game) that's so pervasive these days. I don't expect every mage around me to bow to my will and cure me at every turn but if I'm the only thing standing between said mage and death, a cure would nice.

So excuse me if I enjoy helping people and despise those who don't even give a 2nd thought about others' enjoyment. I've sat there kissing the sky for extended periods of time in campaign battles often enough to know it sucks so I chose to do something about it whenever I can (barring stupid shit of course like trying to solo Bakgodek or the many, many many MPK attempts I see)

[Vyuru]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

Stuff

I sense much anger in this one....

It's every man for himself out there.

Personally I still play it to kill and drive off the mobs, much like Besieged, although I also realize that other people don't view Campaign that way and go for max exp values.

Then bitch and whine when the beastmen take over the zones.

We'll just have to acknowledge that people do Campaign for different reasons is all. I say that mostly 'cause I've been getting some rather negative feedback from some people in Campaign due to this.

[Elwynn]

Re: Campaign Gets Reinforcements! (06/15/2009)

I didn't do "just enfeebles". Because I was holding several mobs, I did take damage from time to time, damage that I had to use Cure on. . . . I can't say for certain, but I think restoring MP through action is supposed to net EXP as well I believe.

There you go. You get XP for taking damage, and you get XP for healing damage. Being a lolBLMtank for as long as possible without dying is the best way for a BLM to get XP in campaign. Which is stupid, but that's why I gave up and got Spirit Taker so I could at least melee for a chance at more MP.

It does bug me a little when you're BLM/WHM, trying to hard get hate so you can get damage and heal it for more points, and someone instantly drops overcures on you the moment your HP goes down to 90%, not even really enough to justify a Drain.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and apparently you also get decent XP (100XP?) for getting kill claim on a mob. With good timing, a BLM can get this a couple of times per battle. Drain can be good for this.