Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

[Feba]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Smns could very easily carry Hi-ether tanks with them where ever they go and spam the crap out of them to keep MP up. But for normal, non-mission/event situations, they don't. So your example is pretty much completely off.

And as a Thf, I can assure you if I had a Gil Toss JA, unless it did absurd amounts of Dmg for less then the cost of a chocobo rental, it would not be used. Gil may not be an issue to the top tier less then 10% playerbase with the best of the best in gear, but for an average run of the mill player, making cash has always been a hurdle to climb over. Nins, Rngs, Cors and to an extent Bsts have always been seen as expensive jobs that throw money at the mobs, and as such can be difficult to play effectively unless you are good at making money. Back when Rng were all the rage, many gimps got by with the cheapest of cheap ammo and weapons, but could still work well because the damage calculations were still in their favor. Now if you try and cheap out on Rng you will suck, visibly. Because money *is* an issue.

Well, I suppose I should qualify that statement. One, I meant for jobs that are perceived as being expensive. Not sure about SMNs, but they are definitely geared towards a higher skill set-- elementals aren't cheap or easily gotten at lower levels iirc, and before the Trial fights it was hard to get any avatars for lower level characters. Even now, there's still Diabolos and Fenrir. Two, I meant things which are perceived as being a fundamental part of the job-- pet food and jugs are for BSTs, arrows are for RNG, tools are for NIN. It's not hard to see a 'mana reserve' food or effect that's specific to summons being much more widely used than hi-ethers. Also consider that a hi-ether tank takes an inventory slot, and management time, whereas ranged attacks, ninja spells, and BST abilities don't require inventory management generally, and infrequently when they do.

On giltoss, I meant more in terms of BCNMs and HNMs, not regular EXP parties. Somewhat like Chi Blast; something which can be very effective depending on the circumstances. Not sure what the best way to balance it would be, but I don't meant it as "thieves throwing gil out like it's minted in Zimbabwe". It would take more thought to refine than I'm willing to do just for the sake of example.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

So yeah, word of the day: "Already." Mostly because most of this shit needs to be done already.

They are too busy putting resources into FFXIV.

kekekeke

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

They are too busy putting resources into FFXIV.

kekekeke

That trick doesn't work on me!

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

While I agree BLM should be updated, the problem is how to make them more relevant in parties. They solo fairly well, even though it's not out of choice. But they're still popular for events and endgame. And often it's not just because they're capable of dealing damage. In fact, in many ways, BLM is still treated as among the key units to doing things. Either enough BLMs show up, or we do something else.

My problem with BLMs demanding updates is that for all their wanting of one, generally BLMs themselves never seem to have an idea of how the job should be updated. Often any attempt at trying to update BLM inevitably turns into "Nerf or remove SCH". Quite frankly, my LS asks me to come to stuff as SCH fairly often, and unless it's a manaburn of some sort, it's never to be a nuker. And in that case, it's more because I don't have BLM leveled, but they don't need my RDM.

Before I start saying BLM needs an update, I want to hear it from BLMs themselves what they want done. (oh, and "Nerf colibri" isn't an option either) If people keep asking for an update, but don't suggest what, you end up with Footwork.

[Ziero]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Well, I suppose I should qualify that statement. One, I meant for jobs that are perceived as being expensive. Not sure about SMNs, but they are definitely geared towards a higher skill set-- elementals aren't cheap or easily gotten at lower levels iirc, and before the Trial fights it was hard to get any avatars for lower level characters. Even now, there's still Diabolos and Fenrir. Two, I meant things which are perceived as being a fundamental part of the job-- pet food and jugs are for BSTs, arrows are for RNG, tools are for NIN. It's not hard to see a 'mana reserve' food or effect that's specific to summons being much more widely used than hi-ethers. Also consider that a hi-ether tank takes an inventory slot, and management time, whereas ranged attacks, ninja spells, and BST abilities don't require inventory management generally, and infrequently when they do.

On giltoss, I meant more in terms of BCNMs and HNMs, not regular EXP parties. Somewhat like Chi Blast; something which can be very effective depending on the circumstances. Not sure what the best way to balance it would be, but I don't meant it as "thieves throwing gil out like it's minted in Zimbabwe". It would take more thought to refine than I'm willing to do just for the sake of example.

But for those jobs that are "perceived" as being expensive, gil costs still factor in. Bsts especially as many of their best Jug pets are needlessly expensive and last a very limited amount of time. To say gil cost "isn't important" in regards to classes known for hemorrhaging gil is just plain incorrect. Especially when you attempt to claim that if Smn had a similar way of replacing MP costs with gil costs they'd happily make use of it. Because in the end, they do have an option, but it's just not financially worth it. Hi-Ether tanks are no worse for Smns then high end Jug pets are for Bsts. Especially for endgame Smns who can find ways to minimize perp costs to near nothing (if I'm not mistaken, a properly geared Smn can get a free Garuda, arguably the most versitile of the 6 avatars). Smns main problem as a class doesn't come from it's bleeding of MP, but it's limitation to twice a minute abilities leading to an excessive reliance on it's subjob.

And again, unless it did a LOT of Dmg for a minor amount of Gil, people won't be spamming any Gil Toss like abilities. But then again people do blow 10-20k on Iwings so I could be wrong. Though classically it was always Sam who had that move, not thf.

[Sekighara]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Well, I would like to see more class specific equipment across the board. Maybe a new job ability for blue. More stuff for pup modifications. Maybe some more debuff spells. I would like to see a curse spell given with a low ability to land (I would want darkknight to get it for giggles) Maybe a TP gain debuff. I would love for warrior to get the aid ability, for those that don't remember it from tactics it gives a small amount of HP and cures status effects, amount cure and status are effect by level. I really don't know BST that well but I would like BST pets or at least jug pets to have custom tp moves that could run off the BST TP or maybe a Treat that activates it and the bst can SC off of it. Summoner I think should be given an aspir like move for diabolos, while I know it wont help much I think it could slow the burden down. I would like rangers to get some higher level status effect arrows,bolts, and or bullets. COR I would like to see a Job spec ammo item that cna help with deals something to be macroed in of course. SCH get a job spec book ammo item with a new ability for merit for it. I want something for DRK but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be invading on another job, but for an improvement for both drk and pld are reductions in their bashs timers. Drgs maybe could get some customer handles to add status effects to their jumps. BLM I have nothing for other then giving them float just because it would be badass to see taru's floating around like the arc angel, oh just got one second tier of spikes that when they attack it gives them burn, chock, ect depending on the spike. Ok thats all I got.

[Feba]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

1- I'm saying 'important' in the sense of "this matters to how the job performs"; reasonable costs for important items are easily accepted. People find the gil to be an acceptable loss. Not "important" in the sense of "this gil doesn't matter to me".

2- The 'option' they have is wildly different from what I'm suggesting. About as different as "nobody uses juices in parties, why add Refresh? it does basically the same thing". A way to take perp costs into account, but make the spike damage the only real MP recovery concern; a way to not have to worry about leaving an avatar out, or using alternate armor instead of minimizing perp costs to not drain your MP.

[Raydeus]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

About Gil Toss, I think BiriBiri-chan from To Aru Majutsu has already showed us the proper way to do it.


/equip ammo Gil
/ja Railgun <t>

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Temper - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research

My 2 gil regarding Black Mage and parties.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

/ja Railgun <t>

Fun fact:

/wave motion gun

is technically a valid command. Technically.

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

>.> I've mentioned Temper/Steel (there's also Saber, BLM had two attack up spells) plenty of times :O


most of friends go "wut?" lol as they've never even played FF1 (which is sad seeing how it's only been remade literally 10+ times)

The question is though, how to balance out the two spells with BRD's minuet?

That'd give them a decent edge at birds and a nice spell to have in general, but there are a few other things SE could give them;

1) 50% MP return on magic bursts (base cost of the spell, before any shenanigans like Dark Arts) but you still have to actually have the MP to cast said spell. This would go a long way towards reviving skill chain + MB.

2) Regain would have really been nice for BLM if it wasn't a white magic spell, but SE could always change this (screw Titania >_>)

3) Maybe give BLM plague or curse? Now granted, both these spells would probably make a lot more sense on DRK but DRK's riding pretty pimp these days.

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

most of friends go "wut?" lol as they've never even played FF1 (which is sad seeing how it's only been remade literally 10+ times)

It was good at the time but it was never that good of a game compared to most stuff that came out later.

Giving BLMs more non-nuke spells that contribute to the party's success is only part of the problem (and the lesser part at that.) I think the core issue is that BLMs won't make a comeback until fighting mobs 8-10 levels higher than you gives EXP comparable to fighting mobs 5-8 levels higher than you. A melee's performance drops radically against higher level targets. A BLM will practically do the same damage to a target of Lv.-5 as a target of Lv.+10, the only thing that changes is resists and I'm not even sure that's an issue for BLMs at the levels they stop being popular. Besides that difference in damage scaling, there's also the fact that VT mobs aren't anywhere near as conducive to skillchaining as IT mobs are. SC+MB starts to make a lot more sense when the melees just aren't capable of zerging the mob with TP spam any more. Also, reducing the enmity generated by MBs would also make Skillchaining + MB'ing earlier in a fight easier. Perhaps make nukes get hate equal to the unboosted damage they would've done?

Another issue is that the support classes barely support nukers besides providing raw MP. COR's MAB roll is already sad in a vacuum and it's a joke compared to its melee rolls. BRD doesn't provide much of anything to boost BLM's power besides Threnodies. Adding the -Magic Evasion step to DNC's routine slows down its progress with Quick Step and Box Step - buffing the BLM shouldn't get in the way of buffing the melees; the melees will always be better off being buffed. Besides that, a BLM isn't going to benefit from Aspir Samba.

I'm all for giving BLM new party-support spells - they really need to mesh with the backline better and bring more to a party than just magic damage. They should be given enhancements such that they actually work better with RDMs and SCHs instead of trying to compete with them. But let's also not overlook some of their current spells that are pretty weak. Let's not beat around the bush, Bio sucks for anything that isn't pure DoT. Dia II is the equivalent of boosting all the melee's Attack by 11%. Bio II just doesn't provide defensive benefits that outweigh that. Doubling the Attack Down potency or perhaps combining it with additional effects like 10% Slow, MAB down (think about it...Cursed Sphere) and/or Plague would give it some leverage. The side effects from elemental enfeebles are pretty meh. -13 AGI? That doesn't even outperform Gravity, and that's with max INT. -13 INT is trivial contribution to BLM's already massive nuke power at that level. Base Stats are just too trivial. These spells need to be enhanced in some way - I don't care if it's a second line of them, a Lv.50 Job Trait or some new Afflatus-like JA system, but they need to be given more direct and potent debuffs. E.g. Attack Down for Drown, Defense Down for Choke, Accuracy Down for Rasp, etc.

A nice dual buff would also be redirecting part of an MB's hate to the tank if the SC was closed with a TA'd WS. Then again, it's probably not necessary since a strong TA'd WS + Skillchain is probably all the hate a tank needs to hold hate off an MB.

EDIT: Naturally the Bio/Elemental DoT changes should be BLM-specific. Also, I think part of the "IT EXP fix" should involve providing significant EXP Chain time extensions for high level skillchains, consecutive skillchains, and high tier (relative to the party's level) nuke MBs. Clearly, as long as the process of Skillchain/Magic Burst is just perceived as a different (arguably too tedious for the rewards involved) way of moving the damage numbers around, and the losses for holding on to extra TP remain so high, people won't be all too thrilled. Give them tangible rewards that directly and obviously lead to improved EXP Chains, and they'll start to reconsider.

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Armando, are you a BLM? Because that's just the sort of reply I've been waiting to hear for a long while. And I'm all for giving the mages buffs that compliment each other rather than compete with each other. Here I'm still wondering if it would really have been so broken to make Enspell II's stack with Ninjutsu and Threnodies (do these 2 even stack with each other?). Refresh has always stacked with Ballad. Why not make a Choke II that inflicts Defense Down stack with Dia II?

Onto more selfish motives: Given RDM's recent adjustment that has added at least some freshness to the job, and SCH's long time adjustment that made it an interesting style of play to constantly be deciding which strategems best fit a situation...let's see what I want out of BST.
- More Jug Pets would be nice for sure.
- Make Feral Howl more accurate. It's already a Con that it is, at best, on a 5 minute timer.
- A Job Ability that would allow the pet to Cover another player if a player stands behind it.
- Pets can be SA/TA'd.
- Given that WHM's got a new spell that allowed them to take a debuff from another person, how about an ability that allows the BST to absorb a debuff that has been inflicted on the pet? So if something like Attack Down is done to the pet, the BST can absorb the Attack Down. This way, somebody with Erase can at least remove it.

As for Campaign, if there are going to be new medals, that means EXP will also be increased for people with higher medals. Perhaps now a 100-120 EXP/Minute sort of deal will now be realized?

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Nah. My BLM is 20 and I mainly leveled it for Warp and as a RDM sub. I haven't even unlocked SCH, and the only reason my RDM is 40 is because I use it as a sub for PLD. I just like to research game mechanics so I recognize that a couple of things are pretty fucked up numerically (like the fact that 10% Attack Down on the mob isn't comparable to 10% Defense Down.)

Here I'm still wondering if it would really have been so broken to make Enspell II's stack with Ninjutsu and Threnodies (do these 2 even stack with each other?)

People found out how resistance down works on those? I don't know if Ninjutsu stacks with Threnodies would I would expect them to; they're separate things, Threnodies inflict a long-lasting "status," whereas the Ninjutsu effect doesn't even have a status icon and always wear off after 15 secs. The Ninjutsu effect is also guaranteed to land whereas Threnodies can get resisted.

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

People found out how resistance down works on those? I don't know if Ninjutsu stacks with Threnodies would I would expect them to; they're separate things, Threnodies inflict a long-lasting "status," whereas the Ninjutsu effect doesn't even have a status icon and always wear off after 15 secs. The Ninjutsu effect is also guaranteed to land whereas Threnodies can get resisted.

Enspell II's inflict -10 elemental resistance and does not stack with Ninjutsu. It's underused either because of narrowmindedness, or as you pointed out, helping mages land spells doesn't seem to help nearly as much as helping meleers. RDM's Death Blossom is stlil valued more for its ability to open skillchains than its ability to deal Magic Evasion Down (although I've heard the Magic Evasion Down seems to help on the resistance rate on the coming skillchain).

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Where's the source on this? Not that I doubt you, it sounds reasonable. I just haven't seen any testing on it (though I haven't checked BG in quite a while.) Also, what's the duration? If it's 15 secs it wouldn't surprise me that it's being considered the same thing as Ninjutsu and Ancient Magic.

(although I've heard the Magic Evasion Down seems to help on the resistance rate on the coming skillchain).

Never seen it in action but I don't see why it wouldn't; an Enspell II of the proper element would also help reduce resist rates.

Another random Job Improvement though that also ties into all this synergy nonsense: Avatars should have Perma-Weather/Elemental Staff-like effect on the whole party when kept out (besides any other boost to their DPS SE wants to give them.) Alternatively, if SE wants to make Elementals stop sucking altogether, give Elementals the perma-weather effect, increase their casting frequency and give the SMN some control over them, and buff avatars so they TP pretty hard by default. I think it's the least they can do since you'll never be able to do absurd things with a pet like give them 70% Haste or COR rolls. Bottom line is that they need a pretty massive buff if they expect people to sacrifice some flexibility in order to let an avatar TP.