Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Neomage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Also, this update really could have been worse: it could have been a totally baseless buff to any part of our magical side other than the Accuracy. >_>;

New Job Ability: Earthen Seal
Adds +5 MAB to earth-based spells.

[Pteryx]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Still, the update tackles a good number of the problems plaguing RDM melee: sub-par weapons and lowered skill (addressed with the Composure Accuracy buff and Enspell II's superior damage), frequent casting (remedied in part by having self-buffs last longer), and inability to use elemental staves (remedied by Enspell II lowering an elemental resistance.)

On the other hand, Composure's specific downside actually encourages the infamous poor RDM melee play mistake of forgetting to do the rest of your job by making it harder to do thanks to the recast timer penalty, said downside cripples the use of deteriorating buffs such as Utsusemi and Stoneskin and thus in most situations where we'd melee will only ever be used pre-fight and then clicked off for no accuracy gain at all, and the En-Ancient Magic only lowers resistance against one element after some delay while elemental staves can be swapped freely. In short, this really doesn't do as much to bring us up front as you might think.

Basically, Composure strikes me as poorly designed if the intent is for it to be kept up while we melee (I was excited at the possibilities until I realized it affected physical accuracy, not magical), though the En-Ancient Magic has potential. Concerning the "initial hit only" part, it has been pointed out that this may open up the opportunity for Sambas to proc on other hits, which would be awesome. OTOH, I wonder if this is a preview of a nerf that extends to the original Enspells too -- or worse, even to Sambas (that last part strikes me as unlikely, though).

Since we don't have anything better to do, let's take bets and guesses. I call:
Acc+20, elemental resistance -30, doubled White Magic self-buff duration, doubled recast timers, up to x1.5 Enspell I damage after enough successive hits.

I'll counter with Acc+(Level/5), ele resist -5 per hit capping at -30, doubled duration on self-only black and white magic buffs (so it affects Spikes too and doesn't affect Haste/Refresh), doubled recast timers (hence the need to click it off once you've finished with your non-deteriorating buffs), 1.5x Enspell I damage initially which increases by 0.1x with each successful hit to a maximum of 2x. And same duration and double cost.

As for SMN... it's an increment, not a real fix. Honestly, I think SE's basically completely stumped as to what to do with the job. -- Pteryx

EDIT: Don't get me wrong about the RDM update, though -- as imperfect as it is, I'll still take Composure to help with non-deteriorating buffs and En-Ancient Magic.

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

On the other hand, Composure's specific downside actually encourages the infamous poor RDM melee play mistake of forgetting to do the rest of your job by making it harder to do thanks to the recast timer penalty, said downside cripples the use of deteriorating buffs such as Utsusemi and Stoneskin and thus in most situations where we'd melee will only ever be used pre-fight and then clicked off for no accuracy gain at all, and the En-Ancient Magic only lowers resistance against one element after some delay while elemental staves can be swapped freely. In short, this really doesn't do as much to bring us up front as you might think.

It's only natural that Composure gets in the way of surviability; RDM is already too strong solo, they just can't receive an offense boost without costing them something right now.

Also, while Composure does cut into your ability to Haste and Refresh, it doesn't remove it outright. If you have that many people to Haste and Refresh in the first place, I would have to wonder why you're in the front lines, since that can't possibly leave you much time to attack. I would imagine that using Haste OR Refresh on 3 other people wouldn't be out of the question either, since the number of times you'd have to reapply it on yourself would be reduced, saving you casts.

I take back my Recast x2, as Lmnop pointed out that Hasso/Seigan only push recasts to x1.5, and I don't think there's any slow higher than 50% either.

[Taskmage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

I rely on shield, phalanx and pdr gear for defense anyway, so there's no drawback. <.< I still say the situations that require blink tanking but are still favorable to melee are exceedingly rare. If taking a hit from the mob is that dangerous, kite.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Ageed. When I sub PLD or WAR, I rarely use Stoneskin, honestly. Anything EM and lower hits me for such pitiful damage, I'd rather take the hits and cure them than waste time casting Stoneskin.

I think we've come a long way from when Grendel used to solo on RDM/BLM, and sleep mobs when his buffs dropped.

Sadly, that's the safest way to solo, but it seems so.. archaic?

[Akashimo]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Sadly, that's the safest way to solo, but it seems so.. archaic?

Cause blms use that method soloing?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

I find it weird that after all the fuss and crying about not being allowed to melee in PTs, we get all this fuss about "It gets in the way of our soloability."

I pretty much expected a Berzerk-like ability. Something with a boost and a downside. WAR, RNG, SCH, WHM and SAM all have stuff like that. Welcome to the club. If you want to be buffed in one direction for a bit, there's gonna be a price.

Velocity Shot is pretty much murder on any RNG with a multi-hit melee weapon. They slowed our melee attacks so we couldn't zerg up TP with Ridill or KC so fast and get mega damage out of being able to shoot quickly, melee fast and WS in seconds.

As for what people were really expecting to happen here, I'd love to know. A pro/con job ability and Enspell IIs were exactly what I was expecting to see here.

[Akashimo]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

As for what people were really expecting to happen here, I'd love to know

Something like hasso for one ability that doubles spell cost(or for song lessen duration, ninjustu 2 tools used), enables a haste effect while negating fast cast effects from traits and gear. Another enables any self target(Single target non-aoe.) spell to be cast with no interruption at the cost of 100+ tp for a duration based on tp; 100% 15 secs 200% 30, 300% 45.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Something like hasso for one ability that doubles spell cost(or for song lessen duration, ninjustu 2 tools used), enables a haste effect while negating fast cast effects from traits and gear. Another enables any self target(Single target non-aoe.) spell to be cast with no interruption at the cost of 100+ tp for a duration based on tp; 100% 15 secs 200% 30, 300% 45.

I would consider Composure for RDM to be "Something like Hasso" as much as Velocity Shot is to RNGs. Fast Cast is your original "Stance," in this case.

RDM wouldn't need a Haste effect, they have the spell to start with and then gear to stack on it. Increasing recast goes against your specialty, which is the point. There are too many ways to put x2 MP cost back in your favor considering RDM has refresh, Convert and access to Conserve MP or Penury/Parsimony under sub. Fast Cast is your nature, so they're taking part of that that away if you want the melee accuracy buff,

If you're going to get an insta-cast ability for meleeing at the cost of TP, you pretty much kill the point of meleeing to start with. We TP to do weaponskills, only DNC or /DNC TPs for other reasons. If you're going to hold back TP for casting, you may as well be backlining it anyway.

[Akashimo]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

If you're going to get an insta-cast ability for meleeing at the cost of TP

Not instant, just can't be interrupted from getting hit, similar how bard casts.

There are too many ways to put x2 MP cost back in your favor considering RDM has refresh, Convert and access to Conserve MP or Penury/Parsimony under sub

Either way, it would still put a step back either from using a stratagem or hoping for converse mp to kick in.

RDM wouldn't need a Haste effect, they have the spell to start with and then gear to stack on it.

Haste at least just for weapon and no effect on timers would be good enough to me compared to accuarcy buff, unless that buff makes it so you'd only need pizza/sushi to reach acc cap.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

This will still get used in merit PT's as well, if nothing else other than to refresh and haste yourself (then cancel Composure)

I wonder if it works with Protectra though, since it can be self-targeted but still does AoE.

[Taskmage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Cause blms use that method soloing?

He was talking about using sleep as a tool while meleeing, not sleep-nuke. Either right before recasting buffs mid-fight so the mob's not beating on you while you refreshhastephalanxspikesenspellstoneskin or to set the mob up for sneak attack.

[Akashimo]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Ah. Wait people actually did that?

[Taskmage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

Me and everyone for whom Grendal was a hero as a young rdm.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

This will still get used in merit PT's as well, if nothing else other than to refresh and haste yourself (then cancel Composure)

Cancelling a JA won't make the current recast penalty go away.