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Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

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  • #91
    Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

    Originally posted by Taskmage View Post
    Was rdm endgame that bad off? This is an honest question and not a rhetorical one.
    No, and anyone who wants RDM improved at endgame needs to tell it to the puppetmasters. I get asked to bring my RDM over my other level 75 jobs all the time, even outside of chainstun fights.

    That's why RDM wasn't updated for so long - it was already freakin' awesome, what are you going to do that doesn't break it completely?


    So, if we're all done whining about how it isn't Elemental Seal on a 30 second timer or whatever it is some people actually want (and btw, if you want ES, you know where to find it; strategic subjob choice is part of the design of RDM), what can we do with what we're getting?

    Want to bet the enspell II resistance down effect stacks with Death Blossom? (Which you will still get more of with Joyeuse, even if the second hits aren't proccing enspells. How that will stack up against E-sword I dunno, but I still expect them to leave daggers in the dust, except maybe against enemies where you want to Energy Drain instead of WSing for damage.)

    If you just Death Blossomed, then necessarily, you don't have (much) TP, so you can afford to swap in a staff (along with other MAB gear) and nuke with the element the target is double-weak to (enspell + DB - triple-weak if you set it up to match an existing weakness) and then put your sword and melee gear back on to resume melee and accumulate TP again. Assuming, of course, that you save enough MP from Composure to allow you to nuke with some frequency. For maximum effectiveness you would want the mob to be weak (or at least not excessively resistant) to two elements adjacent on the wheel, so you can get unresisted enspell damage while still setting up a nearly-unresistable nuke with the adjacent element. I think lizards are weak to wind and ice, for example.

    This reminds me, I've been meaning to try out some rdm/drk soloing now that I have DB - souleater DB, then drain with the magic eva down effect on to recover the HP lost from Souleater (and also because drain is a ridiculously MP efficient nuke). Follow up with aspir on MP using mobs before the effect wears. Of course this strategy can be combined with the above "swap in staves after WS" too - DB effect lasts almost a minute. Enspell for resist down, SE DB, swap in nuking gear, nuke, swap in dark staff + dark skill/etc., drain, aspir, then back to melee. If the magic eva down is strong enough an unresisted aspir could pay for the nuke - and you already have some amount of improved MP efficiency from Composure. DB + drain + nuke could easily be over 1000 total damage, more when souleater is up - and you still have the endurance, CC and all-around survivability of a RDM. You just have to shake the "must gain TP every second" mentality - TP is useful, but not the beginning and end of your solo ability, or even your solo DD ability.

    Come to think of it, /sch might be even better - with composure, you don't have to recast your white magic spells that often, so being able to change arts only once a minute isn't so bad (while the combination of lower MP cost and longer duration is pretty nice); and unlike Vorpal Blade, Death Blossom isn't subjob dependent. You'd give up /DRK's attack bonus trait, Souleater, Stun, and some STR, but gain INT, max MP, Conserve MP and parsimony for your nukes, and still have drain and aspir. Better yet, your resist rates for the drain, aspir, and nukes would start from Dark Arts' B skill instead of your actual elemental and dark magic skills which are much worse. (The difference in dark magic skill between RDM and Dark Arts RDM/SCH is over 50.) Composure Regen II is a nice perk too, and I think /sch will even have reraise in the update, which comes in handy for campaign trains (and other places too).

    With all that swapping, it's a good thing they've already announced more gobbiebags this update. >.>

    None of this is going to make you a monk - nor should it, since monks can't sleep, bind, stoneskin, cure, or do many other things RDMs can. But these improvements will help an interesting playstyle unlike that of any other job, even though it's one that is not suited to all possible fights.
    Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
    RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
    All Nations Rank 10, ZMs & PMs Complete, AUMs Complete, Captain, Nyzul Floor 100 (5 Weapons, 4 WS), Medal of Altana, WotG Mission 15, 1/3 Addons Complete, 9/9 Abyssea Main Quests, 6/6 Caturae

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    • #92
      Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

      This is on a tangent, but puppets can pull off some quite decent tier IV nukes, coordinate easily with a manaburn group and they're essentially hate-free. They're far from useless either.
      lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

        Alright, beastmasters then. The point is, several jobs genuinely do need improvement in endgame situations - RDM isn't one of them, even if you restrict "endgame" to "level 90+ HNMs that appear alone, many of which are kited". (If you define it more broadly to include dynamis, limbus, nyzul, etc... then in most areas of endgame there isn't even a resist problem to solve, even aside from the fact that enfeebling HNMs is apparently *supposed to be hard*.)
        Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
        RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
        All Nations Rank 10, ZMs & PMs Complete, AUMs Complete, Captain, Nyzul Floor 100 (5 Weapons, 4 WS), Medal of Altana, WotG Mission 15, 1/3 Addons Complete, 9/9 Abyssea Main Quests, 6/6 Caturae

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

          Originally posted by Karinya View Post
          So, if we're all done whining about how it isn't Elemental Seal on a 30 second timer or whatever it is some people actually want (and btw, if you want ES, you know where to find it; strategic subjob choice is part of the design of RDM), what can we do with what we're getting?
          Not to really start a huge argument here, but this is part of the problem. To perform a primary aspect of my job, I'm required to use a support job ability? Enfeebling is our A+ skill, one which we should be able to use without much issue. Subbing DRK and using CS+Stun is a niche capability, where yes, we rely on our subjob to get the job done. But to perform a main aspect of my job, such as enfeebling at endgame, I have to rely on a ten minute job ability that isn't even native to my job.

          How does no one else see this as at least mildly retarded? Sure a lot of jobs rely on their subjobs, but not to perform the primary function of their jobs. PLDs don't need /NIN, /WAR, /RDM, or any other sub to actually tank mobs. They can be PLD75/---00 and still get the job done. BLMs can still nuke perfectly fine without any subjob. WHMs can cure with no issues without a subjob. DDs of all types can still smack mobs with their weapons. But RDMs can't enfeeble where it really matters without that extra push from a support job ability. That is what I'm so upset about.

          Sure there is the chance for resist, I'm not saying make it infallible. Just like melees have the chance to miss their hits, RDMs should have the chance for resist. But why is it that I can stack 300+ skill and have absolutely ZERO chance of landing an enfeeb on an HNM without ES? Honestly, that is so unbelievably dumb. If melees had as hard of a time landing hits as RDMs do landing enfeebs, we wouldn't be able to kill jackshit.
          sigpic
          ~Aksannyi~~Hades~~75WHM~75RDM~75BLM~75SMN~73WAR~67SCH~47BRD~
          ~Mama Gamer~~Quitted July 2009/Bannt October 2009~~Excellence LS~
          ~I has a blog~~http://aksannyi.livejournal.com/~
          ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~




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          • #95
            Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

            I'm not gonna lie, I'm fucking stoked. If "Composure" does nothing but make farming easier/quicker, I'll be satisfied.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

              Originally posted by Aksannyi View Post
              Not to really start a huge argument here, but this is part of the problem. To perform a primary aspect of my job, I'm required to use a support job ability? Enfeebling is our A+ skill, one which we should be able to use without much issue. Subbing DRK and using CS+Stun is a niche capability, where yes, we rely on our subjob to get the job done. But to perform a main aspect of my job, such as enfeebling at endgame, I have to rely on a ten minute job ability that isn't even native to my job.

              How does no one else see this as at least mildly retarded? Sure a lot of jobs rely on their subjobs, but not to perform the primary function of their jobs. PLDs don't need /NIN, /WAR, /RDM, or any other sub to actually tank mobs. They can be PLD75/---00 and still get the job done. BLMs can still nuke perfectly fine without any subjob. WHMs can cure with no issues without a subjob. DDs of all types can still smack mobs with their weapons. But RDMs can't enfeeble where it really matters without that extra push from a support job ability. That is what I'm so upset about.

              Sure there is the chance for resist, I'm not saying make it infallible. Just like melees have the chance to miss their hits, RDMs should have the chance for resist. But why is it that I can stack 300+ skill and have absolutely ZERO chance of landing an enfeeb on an HNM without ES? Honestly, that is so unbelievably dumb. If melees had as hard of a time landing hits as RDMs do landing enfeebs, we wouldn't be able to kill jackshit.
              Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I may well be, but RDM doesnt actually have a "primary role." According to everying official from SE that I have ever read RDM is supposed to be a "ok at everything but not great at anything" type of job... Which to me says that it IS entirely dependent on Sub-Job if you want to specialize in one role. If you want to heal you sub whm, if you want to enfeeble or nuke you sub blm, if you want to melee you sub a melee job...

              I could be wrong, but thats exactly how I view RDM.
              "We ride with kings on mighty steeds across the Devil's plain!" - The D

              Ryddia / Nuikoa -- Ragnarok

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              • #97
                Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                Originally posted by ShepardG View Post
                I'm not gonna lie, I'm fucking stoked. If "Composure" does nothing but make farming easier/quicker, I'll be satisfied.
                /nod

                Composure - spend a fraction of the time and mp recasting buffs constantly when solo

                I'll take that.
                lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                  Come to think of it, /sch might be even better - with composure, you don't have to recast your white magic spells that often, so being able to change arts only once a minute isn't so bad (while the combination of lower MP cost and longer duration is pretty nice); and unlike Vorpal Blade, Death Blossom isn't subjob dependent. You'd give up /DRK's attack bonus trait, Souleater, Stun, and some STR, but gain INT, max MP, Conserve MP and parsimony for your nukes, and still have drain and aspir. Better yet, your resist rates for the drain, aspir, and nukes would start from Dark Arts' B skill instead of your actual elemental and dark magic skills which are much worse. (The difference in dark magic skill between RDM and Dark Arts RDM/SCH is over 50.) Composure Regen II is a nice perk too, and I think /sch will even have reraise in the update, which comes in handy for campaign trains (and other places too).
                  I actually pointed this out a few times here and there already, but people are all "Wuuuuuuuhhhh, mah endgame enfeebles still suck!"

                  Celerity and Alacrity could indeed nullify the Composure penalties starting at 50, better at 60+ with two Strategem charges and then with Reraise on SCH being tweaked to 35, it would be available at 70 under sub. Not to mention boosts to Black Magic skills from Dark Arts. Both Arts would provide the usual bonuses and penalties. So you'd want to be careful with how you use Dark Arts, but Light Arts not so much as White Magic recasts are somewhat forgiving anyway.

                  Just no Erase or -aga goodies from /SCH.

                  Of course, to dirtyclown this is all pointless, boring information since adding something constructive to the discussion would require thinking.

                  Post update I'll hop on RDM to see how RDM/SCH works out

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                    Go Copy-Pasta!!

                    Originally posted by I said
                    There were huge discussions in RDM boards across sites as to what we should get for an update. And this update we got, was the sum of what the most people agreed on. And sadly, it came with the countermeasures we predicted.

                    Composure: A JA "Stance" that improves our melee and weakens our magic somehow. We also mentioned something that could increase the frequency of our attacks, which SE interpreted by lengthening our Enhancement duration. Even if we get the max penalty for recast rate (50% was the rate on Hasso.) Red Mage's fast cast chops 15% out of it by level 60 if you use traits and Pimphat together.

                    As far as the amount of accuracy, we'll have to wait. But it was stated: With an optimistic view of even the bottom line, even +10 accuracy for us is a free scorpion harness that could free up accuracy pieces for something more offensively effective like Assault Jerkin. Between this and Augment Items it could be a sufficient enough tweak to make "RDM Melee" easier to do effectively.

                    EN-II Spells: I take all the blame for this one. When discussing the difficulties facing RDMs in the front lines, it was mentioned that the truly problematic levels were from 50-70, to which I said something of the lines of "The Tier II enspells could be powerful, yet still balance if they were initially stronger when they were first gotten, (level 50) and slowly balanced themselves out so that they would be either equal or just slightly stronger than Tier I's relatively at 75." And this was SE's answer to that statement.

                    A single-wielding Red Mage at 50, receiving Enthunder II is going to get the best benefit out of this. Post 70, when Red Mage begins to gather gear like Joyeuse and /nin later on, En-II's will likely drop in potency due to only effecting the initial hit. However, due to the speed and number of attack rounds, Enspell 1 Categories become much more effective.

                    So there's your balance folks. Red Mage perhaps wasn't 'powered up' so to speak, but did get a means to enhance it's melee skills to not be so lax. We'll have to determine the degree of this post-update.


                    I don't think Red Mage got cheapened out, being one of the ones deeply involved in the conversations and research revolving around RDM-melee. However they could NOT have planned a more terrible arrangement of the Job updates. RDM and SMN should have been first, and WHM should have been the 'best for last'. Red Mage's update would not have seemed terrible otherwise. (Though there would have been some cautioned moans about the balance factors.)

                    So long as they meet the potency needs of these buffs, I don't see a huge problem. I'm hoping that the accuracy bonus is a percent value. 5% bare minimum would still be a good 17 accuracy, but hopefully it's somewhere in the lines of 10-20% (total acc). But I know that's overkill.
                    Couple extra questions here to think over:

                    - If the enspell II's only land on the first hit, does that mean I get Samba effects for additional hits?

                    - If haste load is shared with the new and improved RDM, and we can keep our Composure up (lol) does that mean these two jobs will finally see each other in parties again?

                    Art done by Fred Perry.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                      I just lost my entire 2642372473-word paragraph about this, so I shall sum it up in a sentence:

                      FAWK YEAH RDM!

                      Comment


                      • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                        Adds elemental damage to your initial attacks (subsequent blows by characters for whom multiple attacks are possible do not receive this effect). Each successive activation increases elemental damage strength up to a predetermined limit. Reduces the target's resistance against the associated element.
                        Example: We use a Joyeuse, only one swing gets an EnSpell.

                        I hope people don't think this means that we cast it and only ONE Sn spell effect procs.

                        It also appears that the more we hit them, the more our damage goes up (Combination with Composure!!!) and when we cap our damage, then I suppose it's time to pull out.
                        The Tao of Ren
                        FFXIV LowRes Benchmark - 5011

                        If we don't like something, collectively, if our hatred for it throbs like an abscess beneath every thread, does that mean that they're doing something right?
                        Originally posted by Kaeko
                        As hard as it may be, don't take this game or your characters too seriously. I promise you - the guys that really own your account don't.

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                        • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                          It's not necessarily what I wanted/expected, but I won't complain, at least now I can't say RDM hasn't been updated in 5 years. Pending the damage on the actual spells combined with the 2nd hit of Joy procs not giving Enspell damage maybe I'll be able to dust off the ESword at some point and have it reasonably keep up. I really wish Composure didn't hit Ninjutsu recasts, otherwise it'd be perfect for tanking with Death Blossom, especially with a PLD co-tank to close Light. Still if nothing else Enspell IIs/Composure should speed up solo farming at the very least, which is nice enough on its own.

                          Really not forward to making a shit-ton of new macros for my g/f's WHM next week.
                          Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

                          Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

                          Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

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                          • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                            God damn that reminds me, spellcast is probably gonna break. Le sigh. Gonna play the only job I actually use macros for ... RDM! And lulz will be had by all.
                            sigpic
                            ~Aksannyi~~Hades~~75WHM~75RDM~75BLM~75SMN~73WAR~67SCH~47BRD~
                            ~Mama Gamer~~Quitted July 2009/Bannt October 2009~~Excellence LS~
                            ~I has a blog~~http://aksannyi.livejournal.com/~
                            ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~




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                            • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                              First thing I'm doing post-update is muling for my Fencer's Ring, grabbing my Hyorin Obi and my ESword and heading to U.Range for some epeen shots.
                              Callysto of RamuhCaithsith - 75 RDM / BRD / COR / PLD / WAR / SCH / DRK

                              Formerly Callisto of Ramuh. | Retired 5.28.10

                              Callisto Broadwurst of Palamecia

                              Comment


                              • Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

                                Originally posted by WishMaster3K View Post
                                Adds elemental damage to your initial attacks (subsequent blows by characters for whom multiple attacks are possible do not receive this effect). Each successive activation increases elemental damage strength up to a predetermined limit. Reduces the target's resistance against the associated element.
                                Example: We use a Joyeuse, only one swing gets an EnSpell.

                                I hope people don't think this means that we cast it and only ONE En spell effect procs.
                                Quoted for truth. It's most likely the resistance down effect procs from the first hit. Wouldn't be any point to having an enspell that procs for the very first swing that lands and unbuffed hits for everything else.

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