Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

[Armando]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Except we aren't playing a one-player Final Fantasy here. This is Final Fantasy XI, where Enfeebles are supposed to be worth casting, otherwise Red Mages would be out of a specialization, and then we end up being meripo Haste whores. If something has to be unable to be enfeebled in order to be considered a challenge/not a joke, then I postulate that said mob is artificially difficult in the first place.

You're completely misunderstanding what you quoted. BBQ is saying - and he's right - that certain NMs should have insane resistances to certain status ailments, otherwise the NM is pointless. Why worry about a NM that can cast Death or Meteor if you can Silence it?

[Mhurron]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

You're completely misunderstanding what you quoted. BBQ is saying - and he's right - that certain NMs should have insane resistances to certain status ailments, otherwise the NM is pointless. Why worry about a NM that can cast Death or Meteor if you can Silence it?

The problem is that for the most part, many if not most of the mobs that drop something worthwile it's either next to impossible to land any enfeeble on them or it's next to useless.

There are a lot of mobs that are highly resistant to one or two types of enfeebles; once you get a number that are resistant to all of them and you simply have to out endure it, you're beginning to walk into broken territory.

And I'm going to have to say that RDM nukes are probably more effective then RDM melee in most party (EXP, NM etc) situations.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

I agree with everything in post #197.

I can nuke for way more damage than I can enfeeble, and I definitely almost never take a knee to rest, and I often have a TON of MP left when it's time to convert...

At the very least, I throw a few enfeebles out on Trolls, and Mamool Ja.. any time I run accross and enemy that is anything lower than IT, I enfeeble. I'm not saying that RDMs don't enfeeble; all of our gear swapping is for the purpose of enfeebling-

It's just that after exp grinding and getting all that gear, it's USELESS End-game; even on lower-tier end-game activities like Sky. I don't even really remember enfeebling the item pop mobs. (Well Ulli dies pretty fast, and I stand back when we fight MG >_> )

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Hang on, what's wrong with rdm nukes? I tend to nuke for ~600 on most targets and resists are only a major problem on things on the caliber of wyrms, gods and kings. For 90% of the game nukes are a perfectly valid way for rdms to contribute to a fight. In nuking certainly blm is an ace, sch a king, and pup lol a queen but that still makes us - oh how about that - a jack of that trade.

Seriously, my nukes do a pretty decent amount of damage. My tier III's compete fairly well with BLM's tier III, granted I have a lot of MAB gear from leveling BLM, but I can definitely pull some nice numbers on RDM.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

BBQ, what mob types/families aren't covered by jugs, if any?

We have Vermin (Antlion, Beetle, Diremite, Dragonfly), Beast (Tiger, Rabbit), Aquan (Crab), Plantoid (Mandy, Funguar, Cactuar, Flytrap) and Lizard (Lizard, Eft).

Little more representation of Beast and Aquan would be nice, but we're missing Amorph (hecteye, slime, leech, worm, slug) and Bird (Bird, Bat, Colibri). Yes, wierd that Bat would be included, but its what they lumped it in.

Now, our HQ Vermin jugs are fucking awesome, so no problems there. Doubt we'd ever be allowed to have Gnats anyway. Ladybug would be nice though, nice Accuracy Down attack from those (BLUs can vouch for that), plus Stun. Maybe a Crawler/Defoliator-type would be nice, too.

Beast could use some expansion. Tiger is kinda weak, though Roar's Paralyze effect is pretty strong. Rabbit doesn't add much to the table other than Keeneared Steffi being a good low-end farming buddy.Courel would be a solid addition. Redundant in some ways to Tigers, but they can Silence, too. They tend to DD better than Tigers, though. Tiger should be buffed to be more of a tanking pet. Can't really think of another good Beast-type to add, but they do have those other Hare jugs lurking in the DATs.

Aquan is pretty lonely, just Courrier Carrie. Kraken-type would probably be overkill, but I don't think Pugils would be beyond reason.

Plantoid is crowded enough. Even the ones we can charm are boarderline overpowered. As much as I'd love a Korrigan jug, I don't think that one's reasonable. Can't charm the Ochu-types, so I guess that's out. Plantoid's fine as is anyway.

Lizard could also use a little expansion. Just add Raptors. Ambusher Allie could use a boost, her accuracy totally sucks. Efts should be way nastier than the jug we got for them.

Birds - Just give us Colibri. They're annoying to people, make them annoying to mobs now. Feather Tickle, please. Let it keep Snatch Morsel just so it piss people off in PvP and be worthless otherwise. CoP Birds would be acceptable, too. Bats... eh... if any, CoP bats, they have Subsonics for Defense Down. Jet Stream was awesome when I started out BST, but then the RNG nerf came and I guess tri-bats were considered RNG, because Jet Stream got nerfed around then. Wicked awesome before that.

Amorphs - Slugs or Leeches will do. Worms don't want to follow. Slimes don't really have good attacks except for AoE. Hecteyes can AM, yeah, don't see SE giving us that.

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Also, boss mobs resisted most enfeebles in other FF games, they just sometimes had a weakness to one. FFXI bosses follow the same rules. BLM NM or BCNM mob? Good luck silencing it.

My concept wasn't exactly for a nuke to be great on an endgame mob so much as it was to piggyback an enfeeble on it so it gets through on the nuke as a secondary effect.

Think in terms of Dia, Bio or Quick Draw. A two-fold effect. What if there was a job ability that joined a Paralyze II with Blizzard III on a reasonable timer. Use the Blizzard to get the Paralyze on the mob. Since secondary effects always land, you could enfeeble that way.

SCHs use JAs to alter spells to do different things. WHMs will now do something like that, though based on the build-ups of spellcasting or damage taken in a certain stance. RDM devised a way to merge spellcasting with melee, so it would be in-character for them to do other kinds of spell-synthesis without it having to be a melee attack procing enfeebling effects like DNC does.

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On the nuking topic itself, those who say RDM nukes suck are taking the endgame situation and applying it to ToA camps. Nukes suck on Colibri and Imps, yes, but back in the days when I was doing Boyhada Tree and Cape Terrigan camps, a RDM nuking on Magic Burst was an asset. Don't give me the "burn PT" noise, no one burned these camps back then but BLM and RNGs. Balanced PTs had quite a bit of work and RDM was a key player in crippling the mob.

People saying RDM can't nuke aren't that experienced with RDM. And that wasn't directed at YM, I've seen people who should know much, much better saying that. People who have claimed to have been around, at that. I'd hate to think RDMs just started trying to enfeeble and nuke in ToA camps.

If people would go to RoZ camps, I'd be playing RDM today.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

You're completely misunderstanding what you quoted. BBQ is saying - and he's right - that certain NMs should have insane resistances to certain status ailments, otherwise the NM is pointless. Why worry about a NM that can cast Death or Meteor if you can Silence it?

Also, isn't this exactly why SE gave RDM Death Blossom? (Lowers Magic Eva)

^^ more reasons for SAM to merit Shikikoyo.


A Pixie jug would be freaking epic but seeing as they're sentient and all...


really I'd be happy with an HQ Slime/Clot Jug (this would go a long way towards making BST a viable tank) and maybe a hecteyes? SOMETHING that can use magic and is charmable please . _ .

A scorpion wouldn't hurt either as an alternative to Lars for DD.

[Raydeus]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Also, isn't this exactly why SE gave RDM Death Blossom? (Lowers Magic Eva)

Heh heh... hehehehe..... hahahahahaha... ahahahahahahahahahaha...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Taskmage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

On the nuking topic itself, those who say RDM nukes suck are taking the endgame situation and applying it to ToA camps. Nukes suck on Colibri and Imps, yes, but back in the days when I was doing Boyhada Tree and Cape Terrigan camps, a RDM nuking on Magic Burst was an asset. Don't give me the "burn PT" noise, no one burned these camps back then but BLM and RNGs. Balanced PTs had quite a bit of work and RDM was a key player in crippling the mob.

People saying RDM can't nuke aren't that experienced with RDM. And that wasn't directed at YM, I've seen people who should know much, much better saying that. People who have claimed to have been around, at that. I'd hate to think RDMs just started trying to enfeeble and nuke in ToA camps.

If people would go to RoZ camps, I'd be playing RDM today.

Not to mention non-HNM, non-exp settings like dynamis, limbus, assaults, nyzul, etc. If a pld throws Invincible or you get a floor full of flans, a rdm with a good nuking set is a huge asset.

---------- Post added at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------

rdm is a hybrid job and should be played like one. It just takes some sense to know when to switch forms and be buff/debuff support or a nuker or even a tank or a melee as the situation demands rather than obstinately demanding any situation permit you play your preferred style.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Hell, who says RDM can't nuke HNM? Our RDMs join in on the MB! Why the fuck not!

I don't play RDM that much anymore but when I do I enjoy playing something with some variety. Fuck meriting and Salvage. I'll come enfeeble Khimaira.

[Taskmage]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

On the rare occasion I've had the opportunity to nuke high tier jailers, gods, wyrms, etc any skillchains were accidental and difficult to predict and without the MB accuracy bonus I got resisted in the face. /shrug But that just shows it's situational not only to the fight but to the strategy your group is using. It shouldn't ever be discounted out of hand without considering how it might be useful.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

I just think its a silly attitude "RDM sucks at nuking."

Its like saying RNG sucks at enfeebling. Well, its not thier forte, for sure, but those Acid and Blind bolts can come in handy at times. Demon Arrows, too. I don't think people sit there thinking, "You know, it would suck to be doing more damage or taking less of it right now. Enfeebling is for RDMs, just let them do it."

Yet that's what some RDMs are doing with nuking. They look at BLM, they look at SCH and they're like "We're not as good, so why even bother trying?"

People like to run wild with these stats and skill ratings, but its annoying when they do it and don't know what they really mean.

Had a RNG buddy scoff me for using Holy Bolts once, called me a "cheap RNG." This was an ego RNG, old bandwagon RNG at that. Some bandwagon RNGs think spending more makes you a good RNG. Not exactly true. Those Holy Bolts can compete with the best of them.

I like to make it a point to learn every corner of my job. There's no real point to levelling up anything if you don't learn what it can potentially do. Ya got so many RDM twits out there obsessed with "proving" themselves as soloists or melees and not as nukers and enfeeblers.

It makes my brain hurt.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

We never fight Fafnir or Nidhogg without making skillchains. With six BLMs and maybe a RDM nuking, we can easily drop its health down 20-30% or more. We're very good about announcing skillchains as they happen.

Other mobs, like tonight's Tinnin, we do the same thing. Sure, SC/MB is on the way out in xp/merit, but it's surely still used, at least by us. And it's very effective, except for that retarded BLM nerf. (HATE) It's hard to find people who know how to do it nowadays but it's so useful, it's a shame it's not done more often. And I do like mobs that can't be strictly TP'ed. (Spam TP on Fafnir, and it spams Hurricane Wing, and ... that sucks!) Really, I prefer the mobs that require some kind of coordination between mage and melee. This is why I enjoy camping/fighting HNMs so much.

And this is where RDM - even though it sometimes requires like, ES - can shine at what it was meant to do. WHM and BLM don't hold a candle to RDMs here. I'd like some way to make enfeebling more potent, or more accurate, but I really can't complain too much about how it plays even at endgame.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Holy shit, I'm still in awe over the fact that you Skillchain on HNMs.

I was of the impression that Skillchains were in the "Shit No One Does Anymore" category, just like Fishing for Rusty Subligars to Get Rich.

RDMs that know WHEN to MB? Holy canoly, I need to sit down.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Yeah we still MB.

This is from about a month ago.


That did like 35% of Faf's health lol. Serious ownage. And I bet if you look, you can find the two RDMs that MB'ed. I did the math a while back, the magic burst damage alone was like 15k if I remember correctly.

And my nuke on the bottom there is why I truly hate the BLM nerf. >< (Oh and I also think my Burst II timer wasn't up.)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (03/26/2009) [WHM]

Good show, lol. The only ones using T3, I'm wagering. Awesome damage. who the hell was that doing 3k? Jesus.. Talk about making the other BLMs looking bad.