Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

[hexx]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

Then are you saying those that some of those who were been perma-banned for first-time offense should have only been given a suspension? Because there are cases of first-time offenders being perma'd. I'm just trying to figure out what your stance is; earlier you seemed adamant that anyone duping got what they deserved, but now you seem to have changed your mind. Perhaps I'm misreading this post
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LOL, yet another person who automatically assumes I'm whining about getting my suspension. I'm not, and never was, never will. Nor am I complaining that some people got "coal." My complaint is that some of the naughty kids got presents! (In some sense, all of them did as they were allowed to keep their dupes.) Let me clear this up (yet again). I got suspended; I'm fine with that 'cause I can log back in today. I'm just a little sad that OTHER folks got off a little too lightly.

Read the LM-17 thread (page 3) on blue gartr, where Stanislav admits to duping 2 nyzul pieces, and a an Usu. piece from salvage (and his group duped a Morrigan piece), and all he got was an email. When I compare this with other people I know who got perma-banned and have nothing to show for duping (again, not that is an excuse; just for comparison with known exploiters who got off easy). This is why I seriously think they should have just perma-banned all of us. Then the legit players aren't slighted because the cheaters got to keep their dupes; and there would be no complaints among those who were banned since they all got the same sentence for their misdeeds.

I think what he is saying is we dont know for sure that those who CLAIM to be first time offenders are actually repeat offenders, solo. As stated before, WE dont know what SE based their decisions on. We can only speculate, which really doesnt lead anywhere. Its not our place to say whether it was fair or not who got perma'd and who only was temp-banned. You have admitted that you were wrong, and therefore feel bad about, so just leave it at that. Let bygones be bygones dude.

[hpsolo]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

Why should I be outraged? I sign the TOS every time I log in and it states that they can ban me at any time they wish with no prior warning. I understand that and because I understand that I keep my nose as clean as possible.

I was thinking you'd be outraged because SE clearly missed some folks who were dupingThe "outrage" isn't referring to people being banned; the "outrage" was in reference to people who DIDN'T get banned but SHOULD have. (If that point was not clear in my post, then I'd like to clarify that here).
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You have admitted that you were wrong, and therefore feel bad about, so just leave it at that. Let bygones be bygones dude.

Yeah, I should have taken this piece of advice several pages of posts ago ^_^

[Ameroth]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

I was thinking you'd be outraged because SE clearly missed some folks who were dupingThe "outrage" isn't referring to people being banned; the "outrage" was in reference to people who DIDN'T get banned but SHOULD have.

You've been saying the same thing since you first started posting: You don't understand why some ppl get banned, and others (who may or may not be just as guilty) did not. Ok. We get it.

Now let me reiterate what everyone has been repeating to you: Too fucking bad if you don't understand or think it's fair. Never has there been a point in time where SE owed you anything; especially not an explanation on internal affairs concerning their own customers.

You're saying the same thing over and over again... but it's not going to change anything. Just be glad your ass can actually still login into Vanadiel, and drop it.

[Mhurron]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

a random subset

To you it appears random. You don't have the all information that was used to make the decision.

[Elwynn]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

To you it appears random. You don't have the all information that was used to make the decision.

It is also possible that even though the logs went back a whole year, not all of them might have been usable. That's a lot of data to keep around for a whole year, and it's not impossible that some of it got lost. Those who got dupes and escaped the banhammer may simply have been lucky that whatever logs might have gotten them a perma-ban were not available.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

I was thinking you'd be outraged because SE clearly missed some folks who were dupingThe "outrage" isn't referring to people being banned; the "outrage" was in reference to people who DIDN'T get banned but SHOULD have. (If that point was not clear in my post, then I'd like to clarify that here).

No, I'm not outraged. And I've not been going YAY HANG THE DUPERS!! either. It's not up to me to judge what SE does since its their game and they can god damn well do what they please.

It is also possible that even though the logs went back a whole year, not all of them might have been usable. That's a lot of data to keep around for a whole year, and it's not impossible that some of it got lost. Those who got dupes and escaped the banhammer may simply have been lucky that whatever logs might have gotten them a perma-ban were not available.

Text files don't take up that much space. Copy and paste shit off the internet into documents on your pc and check the size. Then think of the resources that SE has as far as storage capacity.

[aegina]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

Then are you saying those that some of those who were been perma-banned for first-time offense should have only been given a suspension? Because there are cases of first-time offenders being perma'd. I'm just trying to figure out what your stance is; earlier you seemed adamant that anyone duping got what they deserved, but now you seem to have changed your mind. Perhaps I'm misreading this post.

My stance is that, In general, I am typically against perma-banning on a first time offence. In this particular case, there were a few who seemed to karmically deserve it, however I'm still opposed to banning first-time offenders in most situations.

While some offences or exploits can be argued to fall within a grey area, duping is pretty universally considered to be a bad thing to do. I never actually said that "Anyone who dupes should be permabanned on the first time offence," but I did say it's clearly wrong with little room to argue otherwise.

I like to believe in giving almost anyone a second chance, even if they were deliberately doing something they knew was wrong. However, in this particular case, there were some who were so arrogant about breaking the rules and getting away with it, that I can't help but find the irony that they got in so much trouble over it hilarious. Despite my laughing, however, I still feel for them. I would hate to lose my own character.

As for instances of players getting perma'd on the first time offence here, I'm going to give SE the benefit of the doubt (for once!), and assume that there was more going on than we are aware of. They have access to the records, after all, while we do not. I also agree with you that I would like more knowledge on how they choose who gets what punishment. However, the other posters here are correct when they say SE doesn't have to give that to us.

Did I make more sense that time?

[Illuen]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

I was wandering around my favorite video game blog, and I saw that even they had an article on the bannings. We be popular!

[EternalMalachi]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

LOL, yet another person who automatically assumes I'm whining about getting my suspension. I'm not, and never was, never will. Nor am I complaining that some people got "coal." My complaint is that some of the naughty kids got presents! (In some sense, all of them did as they were allowed to keep their dupes.) Let me clear this up (yet again). I got suspended; I'm fine with that 'cause I can log back in today. I'm just a little sad that OTHER folks got off a little too lightly.

And this is why I find YOU (personally) aggravating. You come in here with this attitude that WE just DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES, and that we think you are just bellyaching about getting suspended when in fact thats been laid to rest PAGES ago. You keep going on about how you should just stop since none of us want to debate the REAL issue (in your mind) and yet you keep coming back and keep bringing up the same dead issue. You even insulted Kailea, like NO ONE is actually reading your posts before responding, and Omgwtfbbqkitten when you're condescendingly remarking "oh, you must be so pure to not feel the temptation" crap.

You seem to think that Squeenix is being inconsistent in the bannings. Why are some people only getting emails? Why are some people only getting temp bans? Why are some (what you suppose) glitches don't result in bans, but others do?

Squeenix went through the year of logs and decided based on the information found that some people needed permabans while others didn't. Since it is in their power to remove items and they didn't, my guess is that the bannings were not the result of JUST the recent exploiting. Like I said before (if you cared to read any of my posts) "Liars lie." Squeenix took the batch of exploiters as a starting point for their investigation. I'm guessing that they probably went at the investigation with a sense of righteous anger since many of those people who exploited the glitch were actively trying to prevent Squeenix from getting wind of the glitch and fixing it. So much for "loyal customers," eh? Based on the results of the investigation, some people were banned, some suspended, some just got warnings. Why the difference in punishment? Who knows? Not me. Not you. Not anyone on this board, more likely than not. Who does? Squeenix, for one, and probably the people who received the perma-bans. I'm sure both they and Squeenix know what other things they've been up to, whether they deign to share that information or not.

I have not witnessed Squeenix act arbitrarily in the past. I have not seen them going around randomly banning people for no reason whatsoever. Exploiters, however, already start with the stigma of being rulebreakers, so I put little faith in their protests of innocence (or about how they aren't whining, just debating the REAL issues). Some weren't banned? Good for them. They must not have been as bad as those who WERE banned. Thats all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

And it continues... in yet another thread

All offenders are equal, but some are more equal than others? - Order of the Blue Gartr

Disclaimer: This post is not about whether the people who got banned deserved it, or duping/economy/morals/blahblah etc.; in fact, it's only tangentially related to the Salvage issue. This post is about how (and to whom) punishment was (and is) applied.

So far, I've read of at least two people (Wafik and Corwen) who got perm'd with (purportedly) no prior marks on their account. According to Corwen's LJ, he has 4-boxed other accounts for this exploit, yet only his account was hit with a perm (again, first offense) while the other accounts he controlled (and other players in his LS) were hit with temps. (insert standard disclaimer about "but what if he is lying about evrythings???")

This raises the question of whether or not Squenix specifically decided punishment based on who the player was, rather than what they had done. This is an extremely disturbing possibility; the idea that your punishment is determined not on by you have done, but who you are should be pretty frightening to any first-world citizen.

P.S. There may be some who feel compelled to point out that it's Squenix's game and they can do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want. That's true, but essentially beside the point; Squenix still wants to present the appearance of fairness, if only from a PR standpoint. If the media were to run the story that Squenix determines punishments based on who has the most to lose... I don't think that would play very well.

Dan, Dan, Dan... What are we going to do with you?

This is little more another spin on what Chinchilla was arguing and its just as flawed because, well, agreeing to the ToS is kinda like signing a contract.

Actually not "kinda," very much like signing a contract.

Let's apply this to the real world for a second, in a way it makes since to the common viewer of a news program.

Hundreds of people sign a contract that says, at any time, for any reason the contract holder sees fit, that they can be removed the event they signed the contract to participate in.

Any time.

Any reason.

And never, at any point, is this beside the point because we agree to it every time we log in.

People have tried to get out of contracts. Few have succeeded

Prince succeeded, but I can't think of many others. He changed his name to a symbol to get out of a recording contract. We thought he was insane, but it was actually pretty clever and it worked.

Most of us like our names though and, really, since SE owns our characters and won't let us change their names on a whim, probably would not work too well.

In this case, its probably more likely that the dual-boxed accounts were counted as individuals. Individuals that had a first offense.

I know a scenario just like yours that went down on Titan. Vilhelm got a temp ban while his other character Uchicha got permabanned. Uchicha was his COR character on a separate account, to my knowledge.

If Vil paid both accounts on the same CC, Vil may have gotten nabbed, too. Maybe he's wise to that and they thought these were two people in the same house, one with a stronger offense than the other.

[ShepardG]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

If that point was not clear in my post, then I'd like to clarify that here

wait for it....

wait for it.........


FUCKYOUABSOLUTEVIRTUE!

BY the way, that has nothing to do with anything in this post.

Anyway, this shit is so over. Someone should lock this thread before it winds up like the BG thread. SE is the owner/god of all things FFXI and gods can do what they want. people are so funnie, they bitch and moan about crap, because they think that does something productive....SCENARIO TIME!

SCENARIO TIME!!!

- I bitch and moan about duping a Ridill and now I have 379 Ridill's and I sell them to people's Mogs, and Then I get found out by God (SE) and they (SE) Ban me.
-I cry for what ever fucking reason on a forum.
-EVERYONE WHO READS MY BITCHES AGREE'S WITH ME!!!
-....and i'm still banned, BUT I've got everyone's pitty.
-I take that "Pitty" to the bank, and attempt to exchange it for American Euro's!
-This does not work.
-I return to my previous forum and bitch some more, and STILL everyone agree's with me that it's wrong!
-So I'm still broke, I've got a shit ton of "Pitty" and I can't play FFXI.

Last I checked you can bitch in one hand and shit in the other...and then eat both of them, cause NEITHER WILL CHANGE ANYTHING....except maybe the way you smell.

If you all are really really pissed enough about being banned, seeing people banned, or eating your own bitchy shits:

CAP's Lock Screaming

LEARN TO PROGRAM
GET A JOB WITH SE
MOVE UP IN THE COMPANY
CONVINCE THEM THAT YOUR IDEA OF BANNINGS IS BETTER THAN THE ONE THEY'VE BEEN DOING
CASH IN YOUR CHECK!

sorry for the caps, but this is getting ridiculus, and i'm pretty sure my post has been ridiculus from the onset.
Blame BBQ, I read his last post and it brought the demons out in me(not at you BBq, but at the quote you posted).

Spider-Dan said;
Squenix still wants to present the appearance of fairness, if only from a PR standpoint. If the media were to run the story that Squenix determines punishments based on who has the most to lose... I don't think that would play very well.

SE say's Fuck fairness(Fair is something you go to when you wanna ride the tea-cups)
SE say's screw PR (PR is.......2 of the 26 letters in the alphabet)
SE say's forget "The Media" (The media could give to shit's about 500,000 geeks who play a video game,Jack Thompson is dis-barred by the way)

[Balfree]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

holy turkey sammich that im lunching on, batman o.O;

you need to lie down and take a chill pill O.O

here, you can has a muffinz

[ShepardG]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

*Enjoyz his muffinz*

Thanks....1hr later, yeah, I went a bit off the deep end there. It's just frustrating that so many people can't seem to realize that alot of times in life, there's nothing you can do.

*Han solo in carbonite Muffinz*

[Balfree]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

*hans olo.

[Ziero]

Re: Handling Misconduct (Jan. 22) aka Ban hammer!

I find it truly amusing that more of you aren't outraged by this. Some folks are still up in cloud nine reveling in the fact that SE took action and aren't questioning SE's method on who gets to stay and who does not. Sure, SE is claiming that they "handled" the problem. I guess that's good enough for you regardless of the fact that they clearly failed at removing some of the more egregious offenders. If this method of handling cheaters is cool with you all, then we've got nothing left to discuss.

How do you know who the more "egregious offenders" were though? You don't have access to SE's records, you don't know what they know. You don't even know the actual basis on which they've banned people. You're judging everything from second hand accounts, based on memory, with skewed information that seems to be focusing on the wrong items. Because, and I say this again, people weren't banned for just duping Armor.

Read the LM-17 thread (page 3) on blue gartr, where Stanislav admits to duping 2 nyzul pieces, and a an Usu. piece from salvage (and his group duped a Morrigan piece), and all he got was an email. When I compare this with other people I know who got perma-banned and have nothing to show for duping (again, not that is an excuse; just for comparison with known exploiters who got off easy). This is why I seriously think they should have just perma-banned all of us. Then the legit players aren't slighted because the cheaters got to keep their dupes; and there would be no complaints among those who were banned since they all got the same sentence for their misdeeds.

If these people spread the information, willingly duped and sold Alexandrites, or had any previous marks against their accounts, they more then likely got it worse then people who just duped the armor. That seems to be the thing most people are having trouble on, realizing that it's not just armor that was duped. And it's clear in SE's eyes that when you dupe for *profit* they come down much harsher. So while those people may not have gotten any armor, they may have gotten 10-100k worth of duped Alexandrites, throwing them into the economy and messing up SE's records of how much there actually was in the game. Because people seem to ignore the fact that SE was monitering alexandrites drop rates to try and find a fair-yet-difficult balance to the Alexandrite requirements for the Mythic quests. And these dupers caused those drop rates to artificially inflate, which in hand gave SE incorrect information as to how much of that stuff was entering the system.

Once again, I repeat it wasn't just the armor.

The people that come back with their duped items seem to have gotten off scot-free.... However, its like Zelda when you steal something from the store and try to go back, you are branded as a Thief and your name is changed forever. Since we know who all of them are, they are subject to ridicule from anyone on their server who knows who they are. (Which is now pretty much everyone.) Now that I mention that, they could've just made everybody's title say "Stupor Duper" forever and not be able to change. If you try to have it changed via bard, the bard will say LOLDuped and change it to "Epic Failed"

No they're not, in a week people will move on, forget the names, the topics and discussions will die out and things will get back to normal. No one's going to figuratively or literally blacklist people who got suspended for duping, and most people won't even treat them any differently. At worst, they'll get some stray slings and arrows from random people for a few days, but endgame players will still get endgame shells, social players will still be in their social shells and everyone involved will just move on. Except for those who were banned.

here, you can has a muffinz

I can has muffin too?

...wait, hold on

*throws a chair*

NOW can I has muffin?