The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

[Solymir]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

It doesn't make sense, though. I'm wielding a fucking sledgehammer. Not only that, I'm the only job in the game who can actually wield sledgehammers. If you're on a battlefield in plate armor facing Yao Ming with a claymore and Verne Troyer with a sledge, worry about Verne. Yao needs a few swings because your armors set up to deal with him. Verne's just gotta connect with your knee once, and not really hard. Now you're kneeling or face down and he can reach your head.

I almost lol'd at work. Thank you for that.

Also, I agree it would be nice if Whm's could do a little more damage while we have Allied Tags. I mean I still get a decent amount of Exp from doing the melee thing in Campaign, but I don't even do half as well as my Pld.


Side note: Last night I was duoing with a friend in Qufim, he was about to level and suggested level syncing so the exp wouldn't drop. When I level sync'd us I lost the Reraise I had on from a Reraise scroll. Now, I know SE never said this update would stop buffs from disappearing when level Sync was first applied, only when the person sync'd to leveled up. But would have been so hard for them to change that too?

[Akashimo]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Side note: Last night I was duoing with a friend in Qufim, he was about to level and suggested level syncing so the exp wouldn't drop. When I level sync'd us I lost the Reraise I had on from a Reraise scroll. Now, I know SE never said this update would stop buffs from disappearing when level Sync was first applied, only when the person sync'd to leveled up. But would have been so hard for them to change that too?

Yes. Think level 75 SCH aoe stoneskin then pty syncs to 10.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Yeah, if they allowed you to keep buffs when you synced it would be horribly broken.

[Raydeus]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

You got it wrong, he was talking about items like Reraise scroll which have no level requirement. There's no reason for those to wear off when you sync or enter a lvl capped battle.

[Ziero]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Are people still doing this?

That whole argument was always bloody silly, and went out the door the day Blue Mage appeared. I bet if a name was all that mattered, Scholar would surprise the hell out of you.

...you mean the job where it's MAGIC far outweighs the damage done by it's Melee skills? Blue Mage was built around melee stats affecting it's spells, but it still relies more on it's Spells to be effective then it does it's melee abilities.

Here's a thought.

How about giving RDM access to Homam and A- Sword (At least a B+) skill the same as BLU, since the jobs are pretty much opposite sides of the same coin.

Both jobs are designed as fighter mages. Blue mage just happened to get the better end of the Fighter stick.

Red Mage is a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" type class and Blue Mage is a job who relies on Monster based attacks. How are they in any way alike aside from being Hybrid classes that use swords? Red Mages have abilities that allow them to cast a varied amount of spells, just not as good as pure caster classes, and have melee skills that allow them to fight effectively, just not as good as pure melee classes. Blue Mages have spells that have a wide array of modifiers due to the fact that the spells originate from various different sources.

Since most of Blue Mages strongest attacks are based off physical abilities and stats, i.e Str and TP, they have to melee to make these spells work at their strongest. Redmages, however, are so "balanced" that the only way they can really focus on excelling at a single roll is to gear towards that specific roll, in doing so they have to ignore their other abilities. Whether that be gearing for Magic and casting spells or gearing for Melee and using their sword.

Blue Mages and Red Mages are fundimentally, from the ground up, two completely different classes.

Having said that, I'll state that I have nothing against giving Rdm some sort of Melee buff. Especially if it's a "stance" type buff that increases meleeing while reducing casting. But even if they did get that, people still wouldn't want them meleeing anything serious since they're wanted because the spells they have are too good to give up.

You got it wrong, he was talking about items like Reraise scroll which have no level requirement. There's no reason for those to wear off when you sync or enter a lvl capped battle.

Since there's so many buffs with tiers and such, it's just easier to wipe all-or-none when entering a capped event. If it's something like Re-Raise or such, it's easy to just bring the appropriate item (or refresh the buff from FoV) so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Also, as far as those new Caskets go. It's almost a waste as a Thf to use tools on them because all you get is a chance at a hint. And Coffer sickness, causing a coffer to disappear as an "illusion" when you open it is down right dumb. It would be better if you just got the "you can't perform that action" message ala when you have Coffer Curse after a failed pick.

[Solymir]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Yeah, if they allowed you to keep buffs when you synced it would be horribly broken.

It's the buffs that you could use if you were sync'd at that level anyways. Say I cast protect I on myself (doesn't really matter what job/support job combo) and then sync'd to lvl 30. Why should that protect wear off after sync? And my particular gripe in this case was the wasteof the rr scroll, which can be used at any lvl. I should have posted this in the pet peeves thread, but too late now.

[Lmnop]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

...you mean the job where it's MAGIC far outweighs the damage done by it's Melee skills? Blue Mage was built around melee stats affecting it's spells, but it still relies more on it's Spells to be effective then it does it's melee abilities.

Err I think you're contradicting yourself, here.

Blue Mage is, itself, one big trick to bring magic to frontlines. Even if it's damage is entirely (mostly) through spells, it's still doing so in the melee.

Therefore, if RDMs were given a trick that made it so they reliably enfeebled as long as they were attacking with a sword or dagger (afterall, we don't really need more DD), they could still keep their Red Mage name.

Now that I've said that, I read the rest of your post and see you're not entirely against a RDM melee update. I'd have to say a stance would be interesting, but it has to be more than just "weakens your casting to improve melee" because then it's just hitting the "I'm a DRK!!!" JA.

Hopefully S-E has better ideas of what to do than any of us. But I just hope for a change that offers the opportunity to melee, but not manditory (and probably not full time).

[Ziero]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

You mean like Dnc? The job that *relies* on meleeing to enfeeble and support the pt? The Job that despite having better melee stats then Rdm in almost every way possible is still considered "useless" in any "serious" situation by the same people who don't want Rdms meleeing?

Any buffs to Rdm's melee abilities will not be enough to bring Rdm's to the front lines on anything the can't already melee.

[Armando]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

The bulk of BLU's damage comes from physical spells.

Argue semantics all you want, you call them spells, I call them WS's with MP costs. At the end of the day the mob's still taking large amounts of slashing/piercing/blunt damage from within melee range.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Here's a thought.

How about giving RDM access to Homam and A- Sword (At least a B+) skill the same as BLU, since the jobs are pretty much opposite sides of the same coin.


Just a thought.

RDM should have had Homam access from it's release. You don't say "Jack of All Trades" and then halve a job's gear selection, limiting it almost solely to the magical. At present, BLU does a better job at being a generalist than RDM does.

A/A+ Sword skill would not be nearly as bad as many people like to imply. RDM is not going to start hitting like a Great Axe WAR simply because of it(after all, BLU has A- in it, and it's not like they're known for burgeoning sword damage), and the Acc provided with the bump in tier would make a much bigger difference than the increased damage.

You mean like Dnc? The job that *relies* on meleeing to enfeeble and support the pt? The Job that despite having better melee stats then Rdm in almost every way possible is still considered "useless" in any "serious" situation by the same people who don't want Rdms meleeing?

Regardless of whether or not big-time DDs take DNC melee seriously, it's still there, and still wired into the job. I dare you to deny a DNC an invite because you don't want them meleeing.

But then, a DD-oriented PLD doesn't get much respect, either. They seem to get an approving nod, but not much else.

Applying the same to RDM won't make it a suddenly welcome damage dealer. First, no one's expecting it to, and second, anyone resolved not to appreciate extra damage coming from a non-DD is simply not going to do so. But, in the end, the mechanic will still be there, and it will still be functional.




Barring that, if stubborn DDs(and stubborn "backline or GTFO" mages), are still intent on not giving it a try, jilted RDMs can simply pack up their bag of tricks, take that improved frontline ability, and simply group with each other. WHMs too. It's not like these two jobs can't take care of themselves, imagine what could happen if their damage improved.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

after all, BLU has A+ in it,

Minor correction: it's actually A-. Paladin is the A+ Sword job.

But then, a DD-oriented PLD doesn't get much respect, either. They seem to get an approving nod, but not much else.

Devil's advocate: Paladins tend to have so-flipping-many ways to improve their defenses and lock in their hate, that generally, they have a crapload of room left to invest in to their damage potential (which also helps with tanking, as it so happens). Which has always been really great and anybody that ever said otherwise was a fool, but still.

In all honesty, S-E may have been better off doing to Red Mages what they have done to Paladins: give them so many tools to make them so good at what they do (Paladins:defending themselves and their party::Red Mages:landing crippling magic) that focusing on damage is no longer a cost; instead, not focusing on damage becomes the cost. Elemental Staves, in this scenario, would be as excessive as, say, the Adaman Cuirass Set (for lack of a better example off the top of my head).

[Karinya]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

But are additions to a job that do not help them achieve their main job better even considered buffs? Why the hell do Whm need an increase in melee capabilities? Under no circumstances, in any situation, would I want a Whm to melee mobs that we need a Whm to fight against. What Whm and Rdm should get are things that enhance their best attributes as White mages and Red mages. Things to enhance their support capabilities, healing abilities and enfeebling potential. But somehow pushing Whm and Rdm to the "frontlines" will not help these two jobs in any area except ones where they're already on the "frontlines". And while I can understand throwing Rdm a bone and buffing their Melee skills for the sake of just because...is doing the same to Whm *really* that good of an idea?

I think you're half right. It's true that it will have little benefit to make whm better at melee (except for their soloing and campaign, I guess). But enhancing their mage abilities won't help much either. White mages are already really, really great at what they do, by far the best in the game. Their problem is all that content where one healer is too many and what you want is a part healer, part support (e.g. RDM, SMN) or part healer, part DD (e.g. SCH, DNC).

So, basically, in a challenging fight there are already excellent reasons to bring a whm (or even more than one). It's just speedkilling wimps that WHM are subpar at.

Why does every job have to be awesome at speedkilling wimps? Sure, *right now* it's the overwhelmingly fastest way to earn xp. But that supremacy isn't set in stone. SE could, if they wanted to, bring balance to the Force different styles of exp parties and give all the jobs designed to fight dangerous mobs their roles back.


RDM, even more so, doesn't need a melee update. The day RDM becomes a DD is the day every other job becomes gimp except *maybe* NIN, and if we're not meleeing for damage, what are we meleeing for? /DNC effects? (Come to think of it... if it wasn't for those goddamn staves, RDM/DNC might actually be pretty good at things other than dealing damage. I should try that in something like Campaign or Assault where you really don't need staves.) And we can already keep up with speedkill parties ok with refresh and convert; I don't see how melee would enhance our ability to do so anyway.

Certainly I'd like to be freed from the tyranny of elemental staves (now that I have Goliard Cuffs, Balrahn's Ring and D.Chapeau I might be only three or four rare/ex endgame pieces away from reliably landing enfeebles without them - at least on non-HNMs) but that wouldn't necessarily involve a melee update as such.


Hmm, I just had an idea that might help RDM without being insanely broken: a stance-type JA (ie duration longer than recast, so you can keep it up constantly if you want) that when it's active, you gain +1 magic accuracy for every 5 TP you have and +1% cure potency for every 20 TP, but for every spell you cast, your TP decreases by 10. (Alternatively, a piece of gear that has a similar effect, but then it only benefits people who have it, conflicts with other gear, etc.)

So you have to keep meleeing to get the TP back, and you can't swap weapons or you'll lose the TP and therefore the bonus. Since RDM suck with staves, you couldn't use a staff and still keep up with the TP loss per cast. On the other hand, once you are sitting on a couple hundred TP, who needs staves when you have +40-60 macc on top of the rest of your gear and cure potency comparable to (or even slightly better than) light staff?

You probably wouldn't want to WS, but that's no great loss for a RDM. The only thing you'd really be missing out on is dark staff's +hMP, but between RDM's limited rest time available and all the other hMP gear available now, big freaking deal.

This would free RDMs up from staves, while at the same time (1) not affecting staves' usefulness for other jobs that use them; (2) not turning us into a DD uber-job monster; (3) probably not affecting HNM fights much since our TP would decay and be hard to recover; (4) coexisting reasonably with existing gear (anyone who has Justice or Joyeuse, let alone Enhancing Sword or Murgleis, would probably be rather peeved by the introduction of a +macc sword to replace staves, as is sometimes suggested); (5) not relying on a mage using a melee SJ in order to be effective.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Hmm, I just had an idea that might help RDM without being insanely broken: a stance-type JA (ie duration longer than recast, so you can keep it up constantly if you want) that when it's active, you gain +1 magic accuracy for every 5 TP you have and +1% cure potency for every 20 TP, but for every spell you cast, your TP decreases by 10. (Alternatively, a piece of gear that has a similar effect, but then it only benefits people who have it, conflicts with other gear, etc.)

Wouldn't this create a stigma against RDM? One could argue that if his TP is spent with spells, so he'd have to cast sparingly to stretch it out better. Unless he's doling out melee damage fast and accurately, he's not going to accrue TP fast enough to keep spells going out the way we currently do(without the TP application).

Other players might conclude that RDM is too inefficient to include in parties, as opposed to a job that can cast without the TP restriction.

[Malacite]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Why does every job have to be awesome at speedkilling wimps? Sure, *right now* it's the overwhelmingly fastest way to earn xp. But that supremacy isn't set in stone. SE could, if they wanted to, bring balance to the Force different styles of exp parties and give all the jobs designed to fight dangerous mobs their roles back.

In an ideal world yes, but this is the Chrono Cross team we're talking about (I'm never letting up on that XD worst battle system EVER) so who knows. It's not out of the realm of possibilities but it's not terribly likely either.


They could always surprise us with the job adjustments coming in the March update however.


EDIT: Off topic, but at least CC had one of the best intros to an RPG ever to compensate for the WORST battle system & music ever >_>

CC Intro

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHtyCx8DRD4[/ame]

Battle Theme

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRkqWdE_Nd0[/ame]

^ ears are still bleeding from listening to this.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Nothing saying the dev team can't innovate. I assert that BLU and DNC were their finest introductions... but on the other hand, they also gave us SMN's "Skill over cap" nonsense.

I just fear they're treading entirely too carefully here, and that the spring update will amount nothing that makes a difference.