The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

[Firewind]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Because it adds more reasons for a party to invite a SCH over a WHM?

People won't care about SCHs being gimped as long as they can add a +7STR to the frontlines consistently? And don't give me that "I'll add DEX" crap, everyone knows that 80% of the DD population will bitch and moan until they get thier STR buff even if they wouldn't be able to hit the hull of an oil tanker.

I'm not attacking SCHs, I like the job a lot and Stormsurge may well weed out the huge population of useless BRDs I've been bseeing as of late. Really though give me reasons why you would invite a WHM over a SCH in a party now?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Well, Stormsurge only gives a +7 stat boost tops. Unless your party members can benefit from the utility of another storm spell more (meaning the weather effect), then the SCH is better off AoEing Voidstorm, which would give +5 to all stats rather than +7 to just one.

The weather gear in the game still isn't all that plentiful, well, unless you want to use Storm Tekko and that new +5 Store TP leg piece from Beucidine Glacier.

Aurorastorm will most benefit a BRD, PUP, PLD or healer class. The CHR and light weather effect would affect things such as Lullaby and Reprisal accuracy. MNK, SCH and RNG would benefit from Rainstorm for the MND, SAM for the gear buffs if they so choose to use them. Hailstorm is going to be what BLM and SCH want for Blizzard nukes.

Everything else, Voidstorm basically wins.

Still we're talking only a 5-7 stat boost with 5/5 merits. Not nearly as dramatic as what a COR or BRD could do for a PT. Its just a small bonus to what was already there, giving storm magic a little more utility than before.

[Firewind]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Wouldn't combining it with Etude make sense in that respect? Stacking +7 with whatever a stacked Etude adds on must add a nice chunk to a stat even if it is impractical.

I can see just stacking +STR being useful in TP Burns or shortly before a SC. +DEX or Voidstorm would be more useful for general meleeing but would most DD's really care about that?

It's all down to how people are going to SEE the class from now. That is the more important thing. I still know people who refuse to invite DRGs to parties due to the whole lolDRG thing. People will see this and think "Oh wow SCH can buff my STR to teh leets lvlvz!" and not "Oh well it is only +7 to one or +5 to all stats for 3 mins".

If 90% of the RDMs I've partied with can't understand that Regen III will heal over 400HP and the Cure III they just used was both pointless and wasted the MP I spent on Regen and that Sublimation and Refresh do not stack no matter how many times you spam the bloody spell on me, then I'm fairly sure that most melee classes will just see Stormsurge as another buff to att on to the COR and BRD buffs they are so used to getting and use it as yet another excuse not to invite a WHM.

You have to think about how other classes will see this. Do you honestly think that this won't effect a WHM's invite rate?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

You're forgetting most people are idiots. Also, most BRDs and CORs don't know what their own jobs can do any more than the melees know what they can do.

Also, if you have a RDM, its not his fault Refresh and Sublimation don't stack, its your fault for using Sublimation, making his refresh worthless. Refresh is BETTER than Sublimation. You're the problem there, not the RDM.

[Firewind]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Doesn't Refresh Cap at about 5-6MP/Tick? If I'm using Nobles and Sanction and either Double Ballad or Evoker's Roll I can easily hit that. If I RDM puts Refresh on top of that he's just wasted his MP. If I'm subbing SMN I'm already getting 3MP/tick back without Refresh but then I lose access to Sublimation.

Refresh gives me back 3MP/Tick. Nobles + Sanction gives me 2MP/Tick. Sublimation will be pooling a further 2MP/Tick coming to a total of 4MP/Tick assuming I let Sublimation pool for the full 230HP (Will probably be a bit higher now I've dinged 71).

You also have to consider the MP savings from Light Arts and Penury which is likely to be more than a 3MP/Tick buff unless you're an idiot who spams Cure IV or something.

Sublimation also lets me use the Latent from Medicine Ring a lot more often without risking death from standing inside AoE range with S.Skin down.

Besides If I'm using Sublimation around a RDM I'm doing it for their benefit so they can use the MP on something else like keeping refresh on the tank or actually helping me haste people. Refresh costs 40MP a pop and it adds up fast if you have to refresh multiple people in a party. I'm not saying I'll refuse a refresh but the last time I stopped using Sublimation and took refreshes the RDM bitched at me because I WASN'T using Sublimation.

Edit: You have also failed to provide me with reasons why people should now invite a WHM instead of a SCH to a party

[Armando]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Edit: You have also failed to provide me with reasons why people should now invite a WHM instead of a SCH to a party

The very same reasons people would invite a WHM instead of a SCH before the update (Regen III, Cure V, Haste, Flash, Protectra/Shellra V, Curaga III/IV, guaranteed presence of Barspells which may have MDB.) Stormsurge didn't change anything about their status quo; +7 to any given stat is negligible compared to the differences in performance between the rest of what SCH has to offer and what WHM has to offer. WHM/SCH gets all the benefits of Light Arts to further increase MP efficiency/cure speed/Flash recast, as well as having Penury and, in the absence of a RDM, Sublimation.

As far as I know Refresh has no cap; I think I had Auto Refresh + Sanction Refresh + Parade Gorget + Refresh + Evoker's Roll active this one time.

[Firewind]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Not sure about refresh because I had a 5MP/tick Evoker's active, Refresh and Sanction and only got 6MP/Tick back.

Regen III - Most if not all RDMs will just cure over this anyway regardless of if you've cast it. Heck people will even curebomb NIN tanks when Regen is usually more than enough before Shadows go down.

Cure V - Technically SCH can beat this with Cure IV if they were to blow all of thier strats on stuff to boost Cures and tacked on Divine Seal. Impractical? Very and good luck getting rid of the hate that will produce but still possible

Haste - March is better than the Haste spell anyway and most decent DDs will be stacking Haste gear. Double Marching a WAR and stacking haste on the top of that though can produce some very pretty numbers if the WAR is actually using decent +Acc gear.

Flash - Fair point though I find that NOT using this weeds out the bad NIN tanks that rely too much on WHMs using this every time their shadows drop.

Protectra/Shellra V - Protectra V sucks and SCH does have the option to AoE Blink and S.Skin to make up for the lack of magic Defense. Fair point about SV though.

Curaga III/IV - Technically SCH can use this. The option to Accession + CureIII/IV is always there. That and I rarely have to use anything higher than a Curaga II in an exp party. If something has destroyed the party that much that I need to Curaga IV I'll be 2-houring. Benediction pproduces less hate then Curaga IV too.

guaranteed presence of Barspells which may have MDB - AoE barspells can be gotten from a WHM sub and regular barspells can be gotten from a RDM sub. Chances are if a SCH is main healing they're probably using one of those subs. Sure at merit levels a WHM's barspells are going to be better due to macros but you still have access to them nontheless.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Doesn't Refresh Cap at about 5-6MP/Tick? If I'm using Nobles and Sanction and either Double Ballad or Evoker's Roll I can easily hit that. If I RDM puts Refresh on top of that he's just wasted his MP. If I'm subbing SMN I'm already getting 3MP/tick back without Refresh but then I lose access to Sublimation.

Refresh gives me back 3MP/Tick. Nobles + Sanction gives me 2MP/Tick. Sublimation will be pooling a further 2MP/Tick coming to a total of 4MP/Tick assuming I let Sublimation pool for the full 230HP (Will probably be a bit higher now I've dinged 71).

...

Besides If I'm using Sublimation around a RDM I'm doing it for their benefit so they can use the MP on something else like keeping refresh on the tank or actually helping me haste people. Refresh costs 40MP a pop and it adds up fast if you have to refresh multiple people in a party. I'm not saying I'll refuse a refresh but the last time I stopped using Sublimation and took refreshes the RDM bitched at me because I WASN'T using Sublimation.

Refresh gives you MP now as opposed to later. Also, Refresh has no cap at all. You can have Sanction, Vermy, Evoker's Roll, Ballad x2 and Refresh active all at once. With that much Refresh going around, it could be plausible to go without refresh itself, but if its all knocked down to RDM and no BRD or COR present, you're better off taking the refresh than using Sublimation.

Edit: You have also failed to provide me with reasons why people should now invite a WHM instead of a SCH to a party

Haste. Basically everything you had before. SCHs just make a PT more well-defended in meritpo, which isn't without merit, but isn't as desireable to melees as Haste.

You say you have nothing against SCH, but your attitude toward it remains rather paranoid. I only take TP burns when I'm really bored. I can just go manaburn as soon as seek for TP burn.

In fact, the mage that should be most riled about SCHs is generally the one that's not - BLM. Instead, they welcome us into manaburns because we help them keep going longer since we won't run out of MP so fast.

[Armando]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Regen III - Most if not all RDMs will just cure over this anyway regardless of if you've cast it. Heck people will even curebomb NIN tanks when Regen is usually more than enough before Shadows go down.

Not Square's problem. Tell people to stop being stupid.

Cure V - Technically SCH can beat this with Cure IV if they were to blow all of thier strats on stuff to boost Cures and tacked on Divine Seal. Impractical? Very and good luck getting rid of the hate that will produce but still possible

WHM/SCH can use Penury on their own Cure V too.

Haste - March is better than the Haste spell anyway and most decent DDs will be stacking Haste gear. Double Marching a WAR and stacking haste on the top of that though can produce some very pretty numbers if the WAR is actually using decent +Acc gear.

But you don't have to choose between March or Haste. Like you said, you can have both, and Haste will be even better with double Marches on than without. It's kind of like saying "Aggressor? Madrigal is better anyways."

You got me on the Curagas. SCH can't provide Barspells with the same resistance boost as WHM as far as I know, nor can they add MDB to it.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Just chiming in after messing around with the update since its release;

Price change hasn't affected me as DRASTICALLY as I thought. Why? It deterred me from farming so much, that I started leveling a craft, Alchemy specifically. Although I'm only on the beginner synths, its making me some money already and after looking at Hades AH prices I already have a decent path planned out to keep it that way, once I get past the point where I can't get all my mats from NPC's, so I'm actually kinda happy about that.

FoV I like just from the fact that I see it as nothing more than something to supplement me with more xp and buffs on mobs I'm already fighting on jobs pre-30, or using to get a little buffer or to get a level I was shy off on a job post-30. Between what I've read in game and on forums alot of people are complaining about the cooldown and the xp bonus like it's supposed to replace real parties, which it's not. Waiting till they release the full Gothic set to see if I should even bother spending time in Xarc/Behemoths Den farming caskets for the current pieces.

So although lacking MMM and the RDM/WHM update, it's not a bad patch, although compared to the other 'end of the year' patches its pretty lackluster.

Except for the Reraise change. THANK THE GODS I'M GONNA SAVE MONEY ON RERAISE GORGETS NOW.

[Armando]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Waiting till they release the full Gothic set to see if I should even bother spending time in Xarc/Behemoths Den farming caskets for the current pieces.

Holy shit, I just looked at the two Gothic pieces that are out already and I want them so hardcore. Those two pieces of armor + an Ice Shield would be nuts for soloing. I'm gonna farm the hell out of Xarc/Behemoth's Dominion 'til I get them. SE has redeemed itself for making Ice Gauntlets so goddamned impossible to get.

[Malacite]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

The CHR and light weather effect would affect things such as Lullaby and Reprisal accuracy

You mean the weather effect kicking in for Reprisal right? Because I'm fairly sure that spell is influenced by MND if anything at all.

And Marches are better than Haste? While technically true this is not the proper way to look at it;


Try Marches are better with Haste. Honestly you're being far too paranoid and it sounds like you're just not making the effort and using SCH as a scapegoat for your own short comings. Don't blame SE for the stupid shit the community does.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

If I ever start soloing on SAM they'd obviously be worthwhile, but I'm pretty much abusing East Ronfaure S till I hit 54-55, and my DNC sub is nowhere near the level it has to be <_<.

[Durahansolo]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

so i went to xarcabard tonight and ran around and got a carapace mask and these...


Gothic Gauntlets RareEx
[Hands] All Races
DEF:12 STR+3 Enmity+2 Physical damage taken: "Ice Spikes" effect Set: Increases Attack and Ranged Attack
LV 43 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM NIN


lol and submitted a pic to ffxiah if they approve it

http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=15042

LS friend of mine got em lol. Posted on our LS board today.

[Armando]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

You mean the weather effect kicking in for Reprisal right? Because I'm fairly sure that spell is influenced by MND if anything at all.

Reprisal damage is based on the amount of damage absorbed by the shield block, and the resist rate is in all likelihood determined by Enhancing skill. And yeah, BBQ probably meant the weather effect.

Also, for the sake of perspective: if the melees are getting double March and they have Walahra Turban, WHM's Haste spell (15%) increases their number of attack rounds by 25%.

@Durahansolo: I officially hate your friend now, but at least it gives me a glimmer of hope that it won't take me forever to get them.