New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

[Nuriko]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

I wonder if you can just drop the dances like you can various JA like Berserk and Defender ... not to mention what the duration is.

[Karinya]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

it would be good for TP gain at the start of your party's. It's not like you can use TP at the start anyway if you don't have any to use =P

Ah, but this problem is now obsolete. Maxed No Foot Rise > Reverse Flourish, 60 tp (more if you also have RF merits). That's *in addition* to /SAM if you have it - a DNC/SAM with full RF, NFR and Meditate would be starting with 135 TP before they take their first swing at a mob - and every 3 minutes they can do it again. (Once you have some TP to work with you can RF faster than that, if you're not using other flourishes, by doing some actual steps.)

Group 2 merits still won't help you in BCNMs or level synced parties, but aside from that, "oh I don't have any TP the fight just started" is so last month.

[Ellipses]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

So Saber Dance and Fan Dance do not, in fact, stack. They cancel each other out.

[Malacite]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

Ah, but this problem is now obsolete. Maxed No Foot Rise > Reverse Flourish, 60 tp (more if you also have RF merits). That's *in addition* to /SAM if you have it - a DNC/SAM with full RF, NFR and Meditate would be starting with 135 TP before they take their first swing at a mob - and every 3 minutes they can do it again. (Once you have some TP to work with you can RF faster than that, if you're not using other flourishes, by doing some actual steps.)

I'm much more inclined than ever to go with DNC/WAR now that they have Saber Dance.

I've said it a million times already; Store TP doesn't do shit for daggers. Double Attack will earn you far more TP in the long run by 75 (especially now) and while meditate is nice it's only 60 TP. I'll take berserk and double attack over that any day.

[Lmnop]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

I've said it a million times already; Store TP doesn't do shit for daggers. Double Attack will earn you far more TP in the long run by 75 (especially now) and while meditate is nice it's only 60 TP. I'll take berserk and double attack over that any day.

You can say it a couple million more times but we're still not gonna believe you 'til we see the math.
______________________________

A Loose Comparison

Jambiya thing: 5.5 tp/swing.

/sam = Store TP +15

final TP gain: 6.3

5.5 TP pays for Drain Samba III (40 tp) in 8 swings. It pays for a Haste Samba (35 tp) in 7 swings. It pays for Curing Waltz IV (65 tp) in 12 swings. Theoretically, 11 because of a single double attack proc that will occur in this time.

6.3 TP: all figures require one less swing. So about 3 seconds sooner per ability. And the lower the TP costs, the less likely double attack is to process and save you from being less efficient than a /sam.

So the lower the tp quantities, the more /sam shines. And I'd assume a DNC using Samba 3 and keeping up on their steps barely ever has to use a big W4. and the left-over TP just keeps stacking up, of course.

+Double Attack gear (Brutal Earring) has the same impact regardless of sub. However, Store TP is... funky. Incidentally, if you're using a Joyeuse, /war really can't keep up with /sam in TP gain as not only are Double Attack benefits being halved, higher delay weapons are probably less likely to lose Store TP benefits from truncation.

Because of stuff like Enkidu and Cobra gear, DNC has access to a lot of Store TP gear. This doesn't exactly equate to the same boost in tp/hit due to truncation (for instance, a dnc/war will get absolutely 0 benefit from Store TP +1 because it'll up TP gain to 5.55 which gets truncated to the normal 5.5).

It looks rather feasible for a DNC to gear up to +19 Store TP. This amounts to 6.5 tp/swing.

Samba 4: 7 swings. Haste Samba: 6 swings. Waltz 4: 10 exactly (a very nice number with absolutely 0 tp leftover - and of course, it'll actually be something like 9 swings on average via double attack). basically, equal performance to /sam.

The same DNC /sam'ing will get 7.3 tp/swing. This will still amount to (once again) 1 less swing per ability used. Or 2 less swings than a dnc/war with +0 Store TP. So if that's at all an accurate way of showing the capabilities of /sam, well... yeah. It's there. Double Attack isn't reliable, and when it [does] kick in, it tends to be just enough to keep up with /sam.

And that's before Meditate.

I heart Berserk, though.

EDIT: I made some edits in the sTP+19 examples for clarity.

[Malacite]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

Well yah using a joyeuse defeats the purpose of /WAR partially.

But wouldn't you be better off using it when /NIN over /SAM? Yes you'll have less double attacks over all but wouldn't having a good dagger in the main hand balance it out a little?

I don't know, I'm not a 75 DNC so I really can't comment on that (I have however, used daggers on my 75 SAM where I have a crapload of Store TP actually making it worth while)

We'll have to see how Saber Dance plays out I suppose but I'm betting with a brutal earring (maybe a COR too for kicks) it'll break DNC/WAR. Not being able to use Waltzes is a bitch though.

[LilithAngel]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

I'm 3 lvls away from starting to work on DNC merits, but so far, ever since I've hit 70, I've swapped from /SAM to /NIN so I could off-hand my Joyeuse, and I have to say, I've enjoyed every second of it. Once I get it started (which doesn't take long), the TP keeps flowing in.

The TP gain is such that I've been able to simply bloodtank the rank-and-file of Campaign Battles, hardly ever using shadows (mainly cuz at 72, Ichi onry kinda sux). Helps the point values as well.

Whole heartedly a fan of /DRG 30-59, /SAM 60-69, and /NIN w/Joyeuse 70+. Can't go wrong there.

[Armando]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

I've said it a million times already;

You've made similar statements about Dissector and that didn't make them true >_>

Store TP doesn't do shit for daggers. Double Attack will earn you far more TP in the long run by 75 (especially now) and while meditate is nice it's only 60 TP.

Store TP is a multiplier, it's going to have the same efficiency no matter what it's multiplied by. The same thing goes for Double Attack, and like crits, Double Attack doesn't get better the more you stack. You get the same benefit out of Saber Dance with or without /WAR. There's rounding to take into account, but in the worst case scenario the total amount of Store TP wasted due to rounding is: 1 point.

[Malacite]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

Store TP is a multiplier, it's going to have the same efficiency no matter what it's multiplied by.

But the bigger base you have, the more profound of an effect the multiplier has (11.5 [standard 450 GKT] TP a swing vs 4.9 [blau dolch)

And I've long since given up on dissector

Organicks destroys it > _>b

[Armando]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

But the bigger base you have, the more profound of an effect the multiplier has (11.5 [standard 450 GKT] TP a swing vs 4.9 [blau dolch)

Except that TP return is a function of Delay and the TP/sec ratio is going to be almost the same on any weapon a DNC can use. The boost is going to be the same.

10 * 1.1 = 11.
5 * 1.1 = 5.5.
5.5 * 2 = 11.
The weapon with 5 TP is going to swing twice as often as the weapon with 10 TP. (FYI in this case the weapon with 10 TP has a slightly worse TP/sec ratio, which further goes against your argument. 5 TP:180 Delay vs 10 TP:388 Delay.)

Organicks destroys it > _>b

Agreed (not that there isn't much that don't destroy Dissector.) It's just too bad it costs so much to get such a small improvement over Company Sword.

[Malacite]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

And Joyeuse still tramples it for TP gain/DoT > . <;

Still a bad ass sword. It's a god damned shame BLU can't use it.

[Kailea]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

And Joyeuse still tramples it for TP gain/DoT > . <;

Still a bad ass sword. It's a god damned shame BLU can't use it.

you cant count a sword with a special property like Joyeuse, not everyone has or can get one, as easily as just buying a sword from the AH

[Malacite]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

you cant count a sword with a special property like Joyeuse, not everyone has or can get one, as easily as just buying a sword from the AH

And Organicks is any easier to get? (Granted you can buy it but still)

Charybdis isn't even that hard of an NM. The tough part is getting the ToD (the drop is 100%.... NIN and BRD can duo the bugger)

[Armando]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

Getting the ToD on Charybids is easy as hell. The tough part is getting either enough people or the right jobs to kill her and dragging them to SSG when the pop window's going to open.

And Organicks is any easier to get? (Granted you can buy it but still)

You just answered yourself - it can be bought so yes (even if players are dumb and are paying 1 mill for a sword that only outperforms a 10k Company Sword by a small margin in a full party.) Also, considering lots of people want Aurum Sabatons and certainly wouldn't mind getting an Organics drop, and that ZNMs can be popped whenever you want as long as you have the item, without any retarded respawn times, it's a lot easier to get people to help you kill Achamoth than it is easier to get people to wait around at SSG for you and kill Charybdis for no personal gain.

EDIT: Either way, Joytoy is pretty much on equal footing with Justice Sword if you ignore the damage type differences, and Organics certainly isn't harder to get than a Justice Sword.

[Celeal]

Re: New Features for Dancers and Scholars! (12/08/2008)

The TP gain from No Foot Rise and Mediate is 'fixed' (timer), meanwhile from Double Attack is random, under the condition:
(1) The DNC is fighting.
(2) 2nd hit is landed on the mob with 1+ dmg, or else no TP is gained.

The pro of Double Attack is increase DoT, the con is randomness, which the player has less control. On the other hand, Mediate gives more control (60TP, 3min recast timer) to the player.

/SAM also provide Store TP and Zanshin.

/WAR also offers Berserk.

In a party situation, do you prefer Berserk (last 3 min, recast 5 min), or more TP to Box Step on the mob? (Although the effect of Box Step dies when the mob dies)