December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

[Karinya]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

What problems exist for DNC I would hope SE wouldn't be trying to fix completely through Category 2 merits, but through the main job itself.

Well, if the problem only exists at endgame HNM fights, it's legitimate to fix it via merits, IMO.

If the problem exists at lower levels, then yes, it would require a lower level fix. But I don't think the cold start problem really fits that description (esp with the level sync change) - the few times a cold start would really hurt at lower levels (i.e. level capped BCNMs), it can be solved by i-wing or 2hr.

Any time the DNC has a cold start, MP users are starting with full MP; those factors counterbalance somewhat, with the DNC picking up more of the load as mages start needing rest.

But then, they haven't addressed similar issues that BLU, BST and PUP face, so maybe they just don't care to. But its also kinda undeniable that players exaggerate the "feeding the mob TP" situation. Sometimes that's the excuse even when the mob has infinite TP to blow anyway.

A trait that amplifies Subtle Blow to the point where DNCs don't give a mob TP would be helpful, but then, it would kinda overpower them for certain parts of endgame as well.. Kinda steps on the toes of the tricks MNK, RDM and even CORs can play with Subtle Blow effects.

I actually don't know anyone who tries to discourage people from meleeing because of feeding TP - it's not a significant factor and everyone knows that. (Maybe this varies by server or something?) The reasons you can't melee in some fights have more to do with having more players present than you have alliance slots with claim, kiting, level 90 mobs that you can't hit very well with B skill anyway, and sometimes spike effects or short range AOE that make melees too difficult to keep alive.

I don't see any DNC-specific solution to any of those problems (short of something fairly radical like giving DNC ranged weapons so they could go DNC/RNG to kited fights and shoot for TP, and even then they'd be out of range for sambas and steps).

Plague Step could be an interesting solution, though. Inducing plauge would give the DNC a reason to melee as well.

DNC already has a reason to melee - if it's possible to do so. Fights where it isn't possible are the real problem.

But I admit I haven't done much HNM-intensive endgame (as opposed to Assault, Nyzul, Salvage, and other areas where you can melee freely) lately.

At any rate, the limitations DNC is faced with at endgame need to be addressed, I just hope SE isn't planning to do it via Group 2.

And I hope SE is seriously looking at the issues with DNC at endgame and thinking of a solution that can be applied to BLU, PUP and BST as well.

If the problem only appears at level 70+, I think a solution that only appears at level 75 isn't unreasonable.

I don't see any problem with BLU (sure they're mana hogs, but that's part of the job design). PUP and BST's problem is not much different from the generic melee problem (IMO), and two of the solutions (lots of lower level mobs rather than one big mob, and sealed battlefields that don't allow swapping extra members in and out of the alliance) are the same and seem to work fine in the fights that take those approaches.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

I've seen some LSes that are fairly retarded about the pet jobs, Tek/Selphiie has been a witness to it. Hell, the original player was chastised in her shell for EXPing BST in sky before an event, she had the BRD gear on her and was gonna change.

But then, the leader of that shell thought SCHs were just endgame healers and never did Accession Stoneskin/Phalanx outside of Limbus. He really sucked in merit PTs. He did SCH/NIN on Uggy Pendant NM, you know, because that really helps with Utsusemi and such

He wouldn't even allow SMNs at events

And somehow, this knucklehead is still the leader and the shell is still together.

Its mostly a reputation thing about the pet jobs though, SE left 'em without fixes for years and some players still think the jobs are weak in some way.

[Karinya]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

PUP wasn't left without fixes for years... they got new stuff practically every update from ToAU release to WotG. Usually just new attachments, but some of those are pretty significant I think. And then eventually they added the specialist mage heads, which are a big deal.

But anyway, I keep saying you can't blame SE for player stupidity. If the jobs don't have a *real* problem, buffing them might make them too strong. (I do still support some improvements to jug recipe efficiency, timers and/or level caps, though. If Carrie can be uncapped, why can't all HQ jugs (at least)?)

[Armando]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

If Carrie can be uncapped, why can't all HQ jugs (at least)?)

Agreed. Also, BSTs should get a Greater Colibri jug pet. It can wipe TP and parrot magic, it would make a nice jug pet I think.

And BSTs should be able to choose Sic attacks, I don't think it'd be very overpowering as long as Amigo Sabotender remains rare and expensive. Sic is on a 2 minute timer and yet you have to gamble on the TP move you get, many of which can be shit. If you have a crab, you don't want Metallic Body. If you have a Colibri, you don't want to Snatch Morsel a mob. It'd even be fitting, considering Manipulate has been in many FFs.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

PUP wasn't left without fixes for years...

It has only existed for three. -.-;

/mandatory

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

PUP wasn't left without fixes for years... they got new stuff practically every update from ToAU release to WotG. Usually just new attachments, but some of those are pretty significant I think. And then eventually they added the specialist mage heads, which are a big deal.

I said "pet jobs." PUP falls under the umbrella, but its not been around as long as DRG, BST or SMN. Still, its gone through many of the same growing pains these other jobs have and gets nailed with a similar perception.

And SE has tweaked jobs based on perception. BRD didn't need Pianissimo, it had single target buffs it could use. But get enough PLD, DRK and BLUs that won't line up for Ballad and we're left with a need for Pianissimo. Can't tell you just how hard it was to get people who needed ballad to put their backs to the mages even in the mob didn't have an AoE or cone AoE to worry about.

Pianissimo was BRD's fix, I suppose /DNC for Aspir Samba was COR's. Fine by me.

Took SE four years to eradicate the EXP penalty on BST, lower Reward recast, give various jugs new durations and a job ability for Jug pets. Four years. Things got better for DRG the moment we got a load of zones filled with weak-to-piercing mobs that didn't constantly double or triple-attack people for high damage. All this, practically four years after they obliterated countless solo camps

If ToA has been filled with Crabs, just how well would DRG, MNK and WAR be doing right now? The way we went about mobs in previous days did influence what jobs got invited, lets not forget that.

From there, DRG got subtle buffs. /SAM is the most notable of them. Spirit Surge, AF +1 and Homam were a start, but not enough to break perception. After SAM update, the Jump timers were tweaked, the wyvern got stronger the more experience you gained.

SMN got Spirit Siphon. And Diabolos. Before Malacite storms in and gives us his SMN rants, I disagree with how he wants it changed. I see SMN needing to be somwhere in the middle of BRD, COR and SCH. I think their buffs specifically need to be strengthed if they're going to have such lousy durations. It wouldn't take anything away from BRD, COR or SCH as they'd still have all their specialties, some of them even stacking or competing with SMN's.

SMNs don't need to be on the power level of other FF games, otherwise other jobs would serve no purpose, but at the same time, costly pacts shouldn't have such "meh" results. I think most damage SMNs do is fine, they get to the high level where they've earned that. Perhaps not so great at EXP level, which is where they need some attention.

Separate pact-type timers, Spirit Siphon and /SCH for Sublimation are all excellent starts for improving SMN, but more needs to be done for SMN than just adding new summons. MP endurance is now less of an issue, so other parts need to now be worked out.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Oh I agree wholeheartedly, merits should never be used as a means to shore up a job's short comings; that's just bad design.

Also waaay off-topic, but reading this reminded me of four words: Enhances "Divine Veil" effect.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

YM, they have some adjustment coming for WHM, wait and see.

As for the mythic weapon, for all that work you have to get one, WHMs should be able to use Divine Veil an infinite amount of times. That said, they shouldn't be able to do so natively.

At any rate, Accession doesn't step on Divine Veil's toes as much as WHMs want to think it does. The difference for SCH is its a novelty.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Wait and see I shall.

I can kind of see your point behind the work for the Mythic Weapon.

And don't take this the wrong way, but you're kind of coming off boastful about Scholar. "Oh, WHMs are complaining about us being able to do this little thing? Pfft, that's a novelty, look at all this even cooler stuff I can do under the same conditions!"

I am not pulling for WHMs to AoE their self-buffs by any means, but I hope you get the point. <_<

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Whether is Accession or Divine Veil removing status ailments, you're still going to be spending time doing single-target removal. 10 Minute recast or 1 minute, its the same level of frustration when everyone gets hit with the same ailment again.

This is what has made /DNC very integral to various events now. With all the fodder mobs you get in Dynamis, I think jobs like SAM or COR damn well should be subbing DNC in addition to having a DNC here and there anyway.

So again, while everyone makes a fuss about what SCH can do, look what /DNC lets everyone do. Sure, Healing Waltz can't fix petrification or BRD debuffs, but just how often does that happen? And what's to say DNC won't be able to have some kind of merit that allows those ailments to be fixed as well?

[Malacite]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

DNC seems to be suffering from the same issues as THF does; most of it's best attributes are granted at sub job levels. While not the ideal solution, hopefully DNC's group 2's in tandem with the Group 1 will alleviate this.


And I still think SMN ought to be able to rival a BLM in power at the cost of expending more MP. But more realistically, an adjustment to make summoning magic skill have a more profound impact on all areas of summoning would be nice.

There's no reason for so many of the pre-70 pacts to be so lackluster, or for the avatars be such a drawback on the party. They bleed MP like there's no tomorrow, actually lose TP when not engaged with a mob and deal crappy DoT/Feed the mob loads of TP when you use assault.

A moderate boost to avatar parameters and pacts to justify keeping them out is all I ask. If they're going to run SMN on the principal of power @ the cost of considerable amounts of MP, it's only fair to actually have said power match it's cost. (See: BLM AM2)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Malacite, again, you're not tackling Summoner's actual problem: the level 70 Blood Pacts as well as Merited Blood Pacts are enough to rival AM and AM2s.

The actual problem in comparing Summoners to Black Mages is like I said earlier: Black Mages are glass cannons; Summoners are glass next to cannons.

[Malacite]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Well for starters, why is it the lv 70 pacts can't make skill chains? And why aren't physical pacts affected by an avatar's TP?

Now, one thing SE could do is give avatars subtle blow but I don't think that would be a very good idea. While nice to build up their TP, that would probably lead to some serious unbalancing.


What would be sweet though, is if they divided the rage pacts into physical and magical, so you could order say Chaotic Strike to make a Light or Frag chain and then order a thunderstorm to magic burst;

Though there's a few things that conflict here. If the 1st (physical) pact uses up the TP, then unless you've maxed out Thunderstorm you won't get a nice fat damage boost from TP (though as I understand, meriting to lv 5 essentially makes it a 300 TP attack anyway despite what the description says. People over @ BG I think, might have been here, tested and confirmed this)

Also, while a BLM may be a glass cannon, they're not without any means to defend themselves; a SMN who loses their avatar is proper fucked if they are solo or have hate. And yes I'm aware that you only gain minimal hate for issuing pet commands.


At the moment though I'm taking up BST and really enjoying it. I just hit 47 and am going to try to hit 48 ASAP for that Viking Axe and Life Belt. I'm really starting to understand first hand how much the MPK patch has royally screwed over BST.

Now, while I don't think SE should in anyway undo that patch, they could maybe make some adjustments to the jug pets. Some new ones would be nice too, like lady bugs (I would ask for a Pixie but they're sentient... would fucking ROCK though)

Speaking of lady bugs, BBQ have you noticed that even if a charmed Lady Bug uses Nephenteum Hum (sp?) and gives Amnesia to the mob you're fighting it doesn't stop them from using their TP? I don't know if this is intentional or a glitch but either way it's annoying as all hell. Just the other night my pet used it on a Colibri in Ronfaure and about 3 seconds later I ate a peckling fury.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Also, while a BLM may be a glass cannon, they're not without any means to defend themselves;

Um, first of all, unless I'm mistaken, a Black Mage's "defenses" basically boil down to spells/abilities gained from a subjob, as well as that Iquira Weskit (or whatever that body is that gives Curse is called), Shock Spikes, Herald's Gaiters, Bind, Sleep, and {Run away!}.

Secondly, "glass cannon," in the context I used it in, was a good thing: at least the Black Mage him/herself is worth something. This is opposed to Summoners, who, again, are glass next to cannons: they are even more fragile than a Black Mage, and all of their base stats (aside from MP for the avatars) do diddly squat for their job. It is a real shame that the second highest MND and (especially) INT base stats in the game essentially go to waste. It is also no wonder that all the way up until level 70, they are relegated to second-rate healers.

And furthermore, what kind of Mage doesn't have any spells to hone their practice with; summoning the actual avatars themselves hardly counts, as it is essentially only something to be done over and again for Summoning Magic skillups, especially before the nigh-meaningless update that made Blood Pacts give occasional skillups to Summoning Magic Skill, which also happened to be because the Blood Pacts themselves are Pet Abilities, not actual magic, and this in spite of their obvious MP cost and effects. BBQ said earlier that it isn't casting a spell to tell an Avatar to use, say, Fire II, but if that's the case, then why is the MP cost passed back to you, and on top of perpetuation!

And none of this even touches upon how unfriendly the job is to newbies. But I'm all out of ranting steam now. <_< Whoo, /hurray run-on sentences! >.<;

[Malacite]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Um, first of all, unless I'm mistaken, a Black Mage's "defenses" basically boil down to spells/abilities gained from a subjob, as well as that Iquira Weskit (or whatever that body is that gives Curse is called), Shock Spikes, Herald's Gaiters, Bind, Sleep, and {Run away!}.

>.> thank you for inadvertedly proving my point? Other than blink/SS (since most SMN sub WHM; if you're /SCH then you're really screwed >_> ) SMN can't do much to stop something from killing it other than quickly calling out an elemental spirit and praying it gets hate off you. And this is assuming it's only one mob <_<

BLM at least has some enfeebles it can throw out to try and save itself on top of SJ abilities. Yet another reason to buff avatars a little.


Personally I think SE is just dumb founded. There's no doubt in my mind that they are trying to work on a fix for SMN's woes, but just can't come up with anything concrete that won't result in mass bandwagoning. At least that's what I hope is the case. But then look at how long it took them to fix BST and DRG...