Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008) (OLD)

[Phanex]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Some "meh" ideas for WHM JA would be to give them someting similer to BLM sleep vs. Repose.

Maybe a whm version of Aspir? Or an absorb TP and convert to MP spell or ability. SOmething wierd, yet functional.

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

That.

I can manage to melee when it's viable on my own, it's called merits and expensive gear. You want a RDM update, make it possible to enfeeble things like Hydra or Khimaira more often than once every 10 minutes with BLM sub.

Maybe a stance that makes enfeebles more potent in exchange for increased casting times on buffs? This way it wouldn't be useful in solo play but would be great in endgame situations with bigger mobs?

And for the record, Stance jas are one of the greatest ideas SE has ever added to this game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Every half way decent war jumped on this ability the moment it was added. People have tanked everything and anything they can with it. It's added damage and TP gain but no Dmg mitigation, which is what a War really needs to tank effectively. We've always been great at Dmg, we need more natural survivability because Defender sucks.

Also, in case you don't know, this ability is near useless with /nin because it can't proc through shadows. But it's great for /Dnc which seems to be the standard War tanking/soloing sub.

All of which answers nothing about how well it works with GA WAR/SAM.

Again, I don't think there's sufficient data to cast a final judgement on Retaliation. Buf if it works well with /DNC and not with /NIN, gee, I wonder what SE's intention behind that was. Couldn't be to discourage /NIN in some way, could it? Hasso and Seigan are other examples

People don't seem to understand that WAR tanking is not supposed to be like PLD or NIN tanking, if it were meant to be an evasion or mitigation tank, it would have been made such long ago.

Again, more data is needed, specifically from WAR/SAM and WAR/MNK. I've yet to see such data, all I see is whining from WAR/NINs.

[Callisto]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Maybe a stance that makes enfeebles more potent in exchange for increased casting times on buffs? This way it wouldn't be useful in solo play but would be great in endgame situations with bigger mobs?

And for the record, Stance jas are one of the greatest ideas SE has ever added to this game.

What I had in mind was similar, more a 2 stance thing like Hasso/Seigan/LA/DA, where you can increase accuracy at the expense of magic accuracy and vice versa, this could be of marginal use as some sort of a 'melee update' and still help on the backline...but really I think it's the mobs that need to be tweaked instead of the RDMs, having mobs that are practically if not outright immune to all debuffs basically leaves RDM to the role of backup healer and nothing else in big fights(not counting tanking, I enjoy it but many RDMs aren't interested in doing that, and gear for RDM tanking is flipping expensive). I'm ok with gimped melee if my role is to be the debuffing specialist in the group, but for fuck's sake make it so I can actually enfeeble things.

[Cerealkiller]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

this update looks sexy in so many ways, but whats with this, OMG PLD isnt gamebreaking lets find a way to make it so theory they seem to be going with, always adding stuff for pld, ill grant you i love my plds, but im a rdm and thf mostly so im not likely to pull hate, it just seems like this ability will make it easier for crap plds to last when they really should die...
Yay! to all the other stuff though, slow II 5/5 here i come lol

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

All of which answers nothing about how well it works with GA WAR/SAM.

Again, I don't think there's sufficient data to cast a final judgement on Retaliation. Buf if it works well with /DNC and not with /NIN, gee, I wonder what SE's intention behind that was. Couldn't be to discourage /NIN in some way, could it? Hasso and Seigan are other examples

People don't seem to understand that WAR tanking is not supposed to be like PLD or NIN tanking, if it were meant to be an evasion or mitigation tank, it would have been made such long ago.

Again, more data is needed, specifically from WAR/SAM and WAR/MNK. I've yet to see such data, all I see is whining from WAR/NINs.

Why yes, Retaliate is something that was made to benefit wars who don't sub nin. Infact this was proven THE DAY IT WAS RELEASED. It also doesn't stack with Third Eye meaning it's not that useful to War/Sam either...who btw MANY wars also jumped on after that update. And much like other subs, it has minimal affect on the efficiancy of /mnk tanking because all it does is do more Dmg and increase TP gain, which are things a war never had trouble with.

You don't seem to understand that a tank, any tank, regardless of job, has to have a way to reduce or negate the dmg they've taken, not only to stay alive longer but to reduce their hate loss rate. Retaliate doesn't help that at all, and that is the biggest problem a War tank faces. While it's still something that can be feasibly done, it's only really capable through the use of very specific gear and specialized subs (Dnc currently being one of the best, which also gains the most from retaliate).

The "testing" has been done, the ability has been used in a wide variety of situations so it's not lack of information, it's just you not knowing the information.

Me, personally, I'd add a Stance (see, I love these things) that increase Dmg reduction % as HP drops in exchange for attack speed. This would reduce the Damage wars take while making Retaliate a boon to use while not being something that can be abused for pure DDing.

What I had in mind was similar, more a 2 stance thing like Hasso/Seigan/LA/DA, where you can increase accuracy at the expense of magic accuracy and vice versa, this could be of marginal use as some sort of a 'melee update' and still help on the backline...but really I think it's the mobs that need to be tweaked instead of the RDMs, having mobs that are practically if not outright immune to all debuffs basically leaves RDM to the role of backup healer and nothing else in big fights(not counting tanking, I enjoy it but many RDMs aren't interested in doing that, and gear for RDM tanking is flipping expensive). I'm ok with gimped melee if my role is to be the debuffing specialist in the group, but for fuck's sake make it so I can actually enfeeble things.

Ah, see I was mainly just thinking of helping to land enfeebles on big mobs, but I would have no complaints if Rdm got something to boost melee in exchange for magic proficiancy. It would increase their capabilities on those things where extra melee power is needed and too much Macc/Matt etc is just overkill.

[Omni]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Don't go there, you will only make yourself look like just another resented player who never got an invite so he is angry at the world because of it.

A job being popular or useful has absolutely nothing to do with it getting new things to work with. All jobs need new things from time to time to keep things interesting.

Don't go where? I play RDM also on my 2nd char. I play Cor and Brd. I played Nin during its prime, I played Rng during its prime. So much for assumptions...

You're right it has nothing to do with a job getting new things. I totally agree with you but the fact that adding new things to a job that is SO well rounded and strong its very difficult and at the same time keep it from throwing off the balance of the game.

So for the sake of adding things, if they added something like auto-regen trait or attack bonus trait. Something that wouldnt off balance things, would that suffice? I doubt it. The complaints would go from, we dont get anything to we dont get anything good on a job that is ALREADY beyond awesome.

That.

I can manage to melee when it's viable on my own, it's called merits and expensive gear. You want a RDM update, make it possible to enfeeble things like Hydra or Khimaira more often than once every 10 minutes with BLM sub.

I totally agree with this. If you want to have new goodies, improving how enfeebs work would be nice. It's not 'new shinies' but I think would be a better long term update to rdm.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

You don't seem to understand that a tank, any tank, regardless of job, has to have a way to reduce or negate the dmg they've taken, not only to stay alive longer but to reduce their hate loss rate. Retaliate doesn't help that at all, and that is the biggest problem a War tank faces. While it's still something that can be feasibly done, it's only really capable through the use of very specific gear and specialized subs (Dnc currently being one of the best, which also gains the most from retaliate).

/sigh, I guess I have to explain tanking again.

You don't seem to understand that tanking and damage mitigation aren't mutually exclusive. "Tanking" by definition is keeping a mob's attention and holding hate. If you're going to even pretend we're on the same page, at least acknowledge the real definition of tanking.

If you're not holding and keeping hate, you aren't tanking, period.

What does Retaliation do, kids?

Allows WARs to counterattack and do more damage/gain more TP.

What is WAR tanking all about? Taking and dishing out damage. Unlike NIN and PLD, its all about tanking through raw damage and job abilities (with the exception of WAR/DNC). So what Retaliation does is follow the real tanking definition for WAR.

All kinds of tanking require PT support, but WAR requires more specialized support and a specialized defensive build. These are two things WARs and the PTs around them are unwilling to do, increasing the difficulty of making WAR tanking practical.

To me, these "tests" aren't worthwhile because you're applying the PLD and NIN definition of tanking to them. How can Retaliation fit into the PLD or NIN definitions of tanking when SE is making it for WAR?

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

/sigh, I guess I have to explain tanking again.

You don't seem to understand that tanking and damage mitigation aren't mutually exclusive. "Tanking" by definition is keeping a mob's attention and holding hate. If you're going to even pretend we're on the same page, at least acknowledge the real definition of tanking.

If you're not holding and keeping hate, you aren't tanking, period.

What does Retaliation do, kids?

Allows WARs to counterattack and do more damage/gain more TP.

What is WAR tanking all about? Taking and dishing out damage. Unlike NIN and PLD, its all about tanking through raw damage and job abilities (with the exception of WAR/DNC). So what Retaliation does is follow the real tanking definition for WAR.

All kinds of tanking require PT support, but WAR requires more specialized support and a specialized defensive build. These are two things WARs and the PTs around them are unwilling to do, increasing the difficulty of making WAR tanking practical.

To me, these "tests" aren't worthwhile because you're applying the PLD and NIN definition of tanking to them. How can Retaliation fit into the PLD or NIN definitions of tanking when SE is making it for WAR?

So by your definition a Drk who uses SE+LR+WS can tank too? Because they can certainly get and hold a mobs attention.

For a tank job to be successful it not only needs to hold hate, it also needs to stay alive, something Wars have trouble with unless they're being curebombed or using the specialized gear and /sub I mentioned (though thanks for ignoring that part). But the fact is, with every massive hit a War takes, it LOSES massive amounts of Enmity, the more damage it takes the faster it literally bleeds it's hate and the more curing it gets the harder it becomes to pull hate off the Whm in longer fights. What War needs isn't more hate, because that was never the real problem, it's ways to slow down it's hate lost, aka Damage Mitigation.

Plds, Nins, Thfs, Rdms, Blus, Sams, Mnks, Dnc, and other jobs can tank because they can reduce and negate the hate they lose over time. Through evading hits, reducing damage per hit, curing HP lost from a hit or just outright preventing the hit from going through. War can do none of those things effectively thus they struggle to hold hate unless they have very specific endgame gear and a special sub.

But thank you for trying to explain what tanking is, I mean, it's not like I do it constantly on BOTH War and Thf...oh wait, I do. Retaliate is great, but alone it's not a major asset to war tanking. Because once I get double crited then WS'd and dropped from white to red HP, I lose hate and retaliate becomes a *hindrance* when the mob charges at the Whm.

War/Mnk stops being a main tank in the 40s, War/Nin was a premiere "endgame party" tank for a long time, War/Whm and War/Pld were (supposedly) effective tanks against certain big mobs and now War/Dnc gives war it's best tanking capabilities yet. And if you can't see why this trend occurs then you should really just stop arguing

[Pteryx]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Lastly, there is 1 crappy part about this update; SE boosting the Category 2's to 5/10 destroys whatever possibility there may have been for SCH to merit for extra stratagem charges. No way in hell is SE going to give SCH 9 charges @75.

As far as that goes, I don't expect SCH to store more charges and never did... but I think there's still room to hold out hope that recharge time will be reduced. How does a charge once every 45 seconds instead of once a minute sound to you?

Enfeebles already get better depending on the strength of the mob being enfeebled, because they work as percentages. Paralyzing, slowing, or blinding a strong mob *prevents more damage* than paralyzing, slowing, or blinding a weak one, even if the actual proc rates are not different (which they are because you can stack more stats at higher levels too). Similar principles apply to Silence, Gravity, Bind and Sleep. Bio and Dia lower atk/def by a percentage, so the more the target has, the more it loses. Poison just plain does more tick damage based on your enfeebling skill.

It's worth noting that this idea doesn't hold true of Paralyze, because it doesn't keep up with the strength of the monsters. No matter how much you try to keep your MND and MAcc high, Paralyze is resisted more and more often, and procs less and less often even when it sticks, the higher you go in levels. Even Ice Staff only provides a minor and temporary respite. This is why Paralyze II is one of my two merit spells of choice -- it's getting back an ability I loved that had effectively faded away by the 50s. I'm even meriting ice acc and have an Aquilos's Staff now, because it's that big a deal that I get back what was taken away from me.

/sigh, I guess I have to explain tanking again.

You don't seem to understand that tanking and damage mitigation aren't mutually exclusive. "Tanking" by definition is keeping a mob's attention and holding hate. If you're going to even pretend we're on the same page, at least acknowledge the real definition of tanking.

If you're not holding and keeping hate, you aren't tanking, period.

The thing is, you can't hold hate very well if you're dead. Thus, tanks need survivability. WAR seems intended to rely on Def and a healer for survivabilty, but Def is underpowered in this game, overreliance on outside healing is a drain on MP resources even by pre-ToAU, pre-meleeburn standards, and healing generates significant hate -- which, as you say, a tank needs to hold. Thus, tanks in FFXI need some means by which to overcome the weakness of pure Def and reduce their load on the healer.

In short, a tank needs to be able to hold hate and survive, and WAR's not yet good enough at the "survive" part. In order to keep the flavor of WAR, I'm inclined to say WAR should get something to make outside healing thrown at them more effective while also generating less enmity. -- Pteryx

[BurningPanther]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

All the devs need to do now is to improve Def/VIT, and PLD will be an effing BEAST.

[Akashimo]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

So by your definition a Drk who uses SE+LR+WS can tank too? Because they can certainly get and hold a mobs attention.

Drk/blu SE spamming Bludgeon is ;P

But yeah, have to agree on this statement

Plds, Nins, Thfs, Rdms, Blus, Sams, Mnks, Dnc, and other jobs can tank because they can reduce and negate the hate they lose over time. Through evading hits, reducing damage per hit, curing HP lost from a hit or just outright preventing the hit from going through. War can do none of those things effectively thus they struggle to hold hate unless they have very specific endgame gear and a special sub.

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Drk/blu SE spamming Bludgeon is ;P

But yeah, have to agree on this statement

Well yea, but that even further proves that hate generating abilities + damage mitigation abilities are what make tanks tank

I vehemently call BS on SE's comment that creating a tanking specific job is difficult to do. There are numerous different jobs who can achieve the goal of effective tanking and do so through unique means, but in the end they all have the same two things in common. They can generate large amounts of hate and can survive

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3FVdKe_Uw]YouTube - Dragonforce - Through The Fire And Flames (Video)[/ame]

Don't ask.

Wait, wait, wait.

MNK didn't deserve an update?

Straw. Man.

What's the other job besides RDM that hasn't seen an update in just as long?

Oh right, that used to be MNK, right?

OP, please check it.

If MNK is getting its turn now, how far off are we from the RDM update? Probably next update, maybe the one after, definately sometime this year.

I'm just as aware of that possibility as you are. I'm just ever so slightly peeved that the jobs that haven't been updated in the longest time (MNK and RDM) ended up in the back of the line.

Also, this means even if the next update has some cool RDM SWAG in it, it's still not gonna be until September/End of Summer . . .

And who's complaining again? They guy who still hasn't learned refresh yet. You're still playing in the Dark Ages of RDM, YM. The job is hell and misery before Covert and Refresh.

Backwards much? I effin' love Red Mage where I am now! I'm freaking scared of getting Refresh!



. . . Now that that's over, I just got the best idea for us Shield-users that won't even touch Dual-Wield: while wearing a Shield, 4 VIT = 3 Defense.

Hey, better than nothing, right? It'll be all the better if the "diminishing returns of VIT/Def" I keep hearing about are fixed.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Actually RDM was great before 55 when the TP burning started in earnest. I was still support onry, none of that Pink Mage bullshit. Bring me a WHM and I'll enfeeble these assholes to the depths of retardation. A good RDM and WHM team can be the most effective combo, and from the minute I started leveling in Wajaom Woodlands until even now I was fighting the general consensus that a WHM was not needed in xp.

Of course, I can count on one hand the number of parties I actually joined on my road to 75 that didn't have a WHM.

I hate RDM the way it is now. I loved it as an enfeebler. It made me feel good to see "The Monster is Paralyzed." 16 times in the chatlog. But now, we're nothing more than Haste bitches. Fuck all that! While I know that RDM enfeebles have their uses in a lot of endgame situations, to me it's just not enough usefulness out of the spells for which I have an A+ rating in. On WHM I use my A+ skill all the fucking time.

I would love to see an Enfeebling JA. Although I still think Enfeebling Magic skill and the way it calculates if/when/how long an enfeeble will stick is fucking stupid. A RDM with 276 Enfeebling Magic skill (meaning no merits and no gear) can stick Slow almost as often as a RDM with full merits and a shitload of gear bringing them up to roughly 320 Enfeebling Magic skill or higher. Something's not right with that.

I don't give a damn about a melee update tbh. When I use RDM for meleeing I do just fine. It's about bringing RDM to the front? Well I got my fill of that from 1-50. At 51 I put the sword away and picked up staves for good and to be honest, I haven't looked back. To those of you who can out-parse some melees, that's great, but I'm really not interested in doing that with my RDM, and I don't think that makes me a gimp, not in the slightest. I'm leveling WAR for fun DD-ness. While I've seen that well geared RDMs can put forth some nice numbers, I'm not interested in putting forth the gil (or the merits) to push it to that level when I'll get a lot more usefulness out of Terra's Staff (next on my list), Errant Cape, Jupiter's Staff, Aristocrat's Coat, Serket Ring, etc. (Obviously not all that stuff is for RDM but I use WHM more anyway). If I win the 100mil ... hell, maybe I'll gear up my RDM for uber-melee. Until then, though, I just don't give a shit about it.

And to this day I still believe RDM is pretty fucking awesome at what it does, aside from the inability to scale Enfeebs based on skill + gear (why shouldn't the RDM with the highest Enfeebling Magic Skill be all over that, why should we need a backup? Why should he get resisted but OtherRDM can get it to stick?) I think RDM is really pretty much perfect the way it is.