Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008) (OLD)

[Kailea]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Another class given dual wield, but make it at level 38

DNC
COR
or even RNG

give it to someone -.-

(heh looks like I joined the update bandwagon ^.^ ...oh well)

[Raydeus]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Probably all one-handed weapons should be Dual-weildable for any job that can equip them, with an att/acc penalty on the off-hand weapon.

And then have Dual-weild traits for a few jobs like NIN and THF that would negate the penalty and do everything else they already do now.

[Phanex]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Wow, I’m kinda late for the whole RDM argument about getting new ja/spell/something, but the way I look at it is like this. It would be different is SE never mentioned anything about giving RDM anything, or a frontline status, but SE did say they were thinking of giving RDM something. So yeah nowadays, I can understand the disappointment all the RDMs have every time they are passed over at update times. Like others have said, they probably just can’t find the right ja for them.

And you know how they feel about the public’s voice and concerns. It took them how long to get nomads out to the dunes and mhura? They dangled a carrot out in front of all the RDMs out there and now everyday we wake hoping its Christmas morning for RDM. LOL

And who knows, all these new JA and Spells and general job updates might be more focused for use of any new content for WotG areas. I mean some of these jobs might be considered overkill in some old hunting grounds, but we don’t know what SE has planned for the future of Party Dynamics, if they have any at all. I don’t think they’d do stuff just to do it.

And seriously, throw WHM a bone or two SE…sheesh. They helped them out, got them some great DD gear, and Hexa Strike….I’m gussing for SOLO play, but ppl freak out when I get bored on WHM and start helping them Kill Mobs and use HEXA with the RDM to make Light. LOL it’s fun…so sue me.

But they haven’t given whm anything to help them out in Party situations much, other than giving us 3 different sources for Refresh, but how often will a party need a WHM when they have a COR, BRD and a RDM already?

[Armando]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Probably all one-handed weapons should be Dual-weildable for any job that can equip them, with an att/acc penalty on the off-hand weapon.

And then have Dual-weild traits for a few jobs like NIN and THF that would negate the penalty and do everything else they already do now.

Sounds pointless. You'd have no Delay reduction, one hand would be gimped, so you'd be gimping your DoT for an extra hit in your WS?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

BBQ, how did PLD need the a spell that increases block rate and reflects some damage back on the mob? Note the usage of the word "need." Does it change how endgame mobs are going to be tanked? Does it change how EXP parties are going to be tanked? Does it address some deficiency PLD had?

I don't see how this is relevant, seeing as I wasn't talking about PLD at all.

But I'll bite, everyone and thier grandma seems to thing PLD needed more damage mitigation and longevity. Let's look at those first two adjustments to PLD, they got Auto-Refresh and Rampart added a stoneskin-like effect. Then there was the addtion of Parade Gorget, which went nice with the existing Hercules Ring and Sanction. Not all of these were PLD specific updates, but we can't deny the benefit to PLDs.

Now, we're getting a spell that helps sheild blocks occur more often - more damage mitigation, basically, though perhaps not 100%. Also we now have a job that loves to spam two things PLDs love for even more damage mitigation - SCH's Accession Stoneskin/Phalanx combo.

Then there's this single-target ability update to BRD. Yes, this affects PLD directly.If you look at the bigger long term picture and outside of PLD just a little bit, you'll see that PLD has gotten a lot of support.

Finally, how many years have PLDs wanted a spell exclusive to thier job. I remember a lot of discussions about PLD-specific magic and I've also taken part in such discussions. Everyone seems to agree that PLD needed more endurance and damage mitigation, which is exactly what PLD has gotten.

And how did MNK need a different way to Autoattack?

We don't know the full extent of how this is going to function just yet. We've seen that with Hasso, Seigan, Retaliation and Velocity Shot that some kind of penalty was involved. Hasso and Seigan inflict recast penaltys, Retaliation reduces movement speed and Velocity shot raises attack and ranged attack speed while lowering melee attack speed.

If a MNK is switching purely to Kick Attacks for more damage, then I think thier evasion, defense or ability to counterattack is going to take a hit. SE doesn't always come out and say there's a penalty for these new abilities, but I don't think they'd give a new one to MNK and just let them AFK the job as easily.

Did DRK really need to have Absorb-Accuracy after getting Absorb-TP, Drain II and Dread Spikes?

I don't like how SE spaced out all the DRK updates and I don't think Drain II was neccessary, but that aside, I think everything DRK has gotten has been beneficial to the job. DRK's problem is still perception.

Did Retaliation fix WAR tanking?

Did we see an increase in GA WARs when the SAM update came? Did WARs try to tank them.

No.

Did we see an increase in GA WARs when the two-hander update came out?

Yeah.

Did WARs start tanking again?

No

So do you think a lot of WARs have tried tanking with Retaliation or that we've gotten enough data to prove that, with all the other updates, that WARs still can't tank?

I seriously doubt enough people have actually tried to find out this is the case.

Find me a GA-wielding WAR/SAM that that tanks and uses Retaliation, find me a WAR/NIN that DWs axes and uses Retaliation and let me know.

And I know why you're not touching the BRD update, its because deep down, you know its needed. BRD might have it good, but again, this update directly benefits a job like PLD.

-------------------------------------------------------

Other stuff Armando mentioned:

Did we need Monomi: Ichi. Yeah, but I think it was addeded not just to give NIN sneak but to place another economic control on the crafter marken. NIN tools and the rise of /NIN in popularity had a lot to do with the price reduction in prism powders. Monomi has served to do the same to sneak oils. Crafters might gripe a bit about this but long-term this benefits the community and the in-game economy where these items are concerned.

Was BLM given scythe skill just because? I'll admit on the surface there's a asthetic reason behind it (Ark Angel Tartaru), but also consider that staffs suck to melee with and farming with spells wasn't always practical, meanwhile you have RDM with decent sword skill and WHM with high club skill. Why should they be able to function without spells and BLM did. SCH gets C- daggers (they get BD when DNC didn't for crying out loud), so any of these jobs can attend to the smaller stuff without blowing a ton of MP to do so.

And yes, I've seen BLMs use Scythe for more than asthetics, I just passed a BLM meleeing a sapling with a scythe in Vukerl Inlet.

[Feba]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Armando: Offhand weapon stat boosts? RNG could use this for Archer's Knives, and WAR for those +ACC axes.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Simply because you have no good ideas does not mean however, that there are not broken or there are not problems. You seem to be unable to comprehend logic at all.

I think this is you telling me the point I was trying to make.

Give X something for no other reason then they haven't got something recently is not a fix, it is not a well thought out request and it is not useful or interesting in the slightest. It is whining like a spoilt little brat.

Show me a point where I said anything resembling this. Where I said it was perfectly acceptable to add things just because.

From the top:

Indeed. As of June, the only job without an update since November fanfest will also be the only job without an update for the past four-and-a-half years.

to which you respond:

This might mean something if it came from someone who had a good idea for something that should be done, but since it doesn't, well, it doesn't.

Feel free to correct in your normal obnoxiously insulting manor, but this doesn't look like it says "Posterdude, you just want something fixed just because it hasn't been." This looks more like you said "you don't know how to fix the problem, so STFU."

Which is beyond retarded. Incidentally, if I'm right, it directly contradicts the quote used at the very top of this post.

It's not "I WANT EVERYTHING MY WAY," it's "I WANT EVERYTHING BALANCED." How I feel about updating RDMs is completely unknown to you. Don't assume one way or the other.

If I see something broken, I have every right to point it out. It didn't take a moron to see that a war/nin could dual wield to gain +50 attack and end up with higher attack than a DRK with a Scythe. But the only fix I could come up with was "I guess we need better scythes." I'm glad S-E did it their way. And I'm glad the community complained instead of following your logic.

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

I would admit though, make summoning skill a little easier to get and base summons power off of it.
RDM could use something
2h weapons need a better ACC rate then 1h
DRG needs more control over pet
PUPs need better AI for pet
NPCs need to beable to be summoned more
WAR needs something to beable to tank so we could have another one ;p

Agreed
Agreed
They already have that
Not really
Sure
Already adding that
Agreed

Probably all one-handed weapons should be Dual-weildable for any job that can equip them, with an att/acc penalty on the off-hand weapon.

And then have Dual-weild traits for a few jobs like NIN and THF that would negate the penalty and do everything else they already do now.

Why? And DW traits + DA+zerk/LR+SE/DNC sub would be damn near broken.

But they haven’t given whm anything to help them out in Party situations much, other than giving us 3 different sources for Refresh, but how often will a party need a WHM when they have a COR, BRD and a RDM already?

Repose and /Sch sub?

Did we see an increase in GA WARs when the SAM update came? Did WARs try to tank them.

No.

Did we see an increase in GA WARs when the two-hander update came out?

Yeah.

Did WARs start tanking again?

No

So do you think a lot of WARs have tried tanking with Retaliation or that we've gotten enough data to prove that, with all the other updates, that WARs still can't tank?

I seriously doubt enough people have actually tried to find out this is the case.

Find me a GA-wielding WAR/SAM that that tanks and uses Retaliation, find me a WAR/NIN that DWs axes and uses Retaliation and let me know.

Bull. Crap.

Every half way decent war jumped on this ability the moment it was added. People have tanked everything and anything they can with it. It's added damage and TP gain but no Dmg mitigation, which is what a War really needs to tank effectively. We've always been great at Dmg, we need more natural survivability because Defender sucks.

Also, in case you don't know, this ability is near useless with /nin because it can't proc through shadows. But it's great for /Dnc which seems to be the standard War tanking/soloing sub.

as BLM given scythe skill just because? I'll admit on the surface there's a asthetic reason behind it (Ark Angel Tartaru), but also consider that staffs suck to melee with and farming with spells wasn't always practical, meanwhile you have RDM with decent sword skill and WHM with high club skill. Why should they be able to function without spells and BLM did. SCH gets C- daggers (they get BD when DNC didn't for crying out loud), so any of these jobs can attend to the smaller stuff without blowing a ton of MP to do so.

And yes, I've seen BLMs use Scythe for more than asthetics, I just passed a BLM meleeing a sapling with a scythe in Vukerl Inlet.

Blm have higher Dagger skill then Scythe skill. It was a purely asthetic change.

Also, as said in the Update notes, the downside to the new Mnk stance would be a decrease in attack speed. It's basically changing Mnks from high speed/low dmg attackers into low speed/high dmg attackers which will be useful on HNMs due to lower TP spamming and a higher chance to do more Dmg per hit.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Ty Armando, at least someone gets where I'm coming from...

I'm not promoting the bitching here, I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with handing out new shinies and that it's only fair that every job gets something whether it's needed or not. Retaliation is an awesome JA for sure, but it still fails to address WAR's need to mitigate damage and as I said before, the job is already border-line broken like NIN and RDM are.


On the subject of what RDM "needs" the only thing that truly comes to mind is something that allows them to melee with a sword while still performing their mage duties, and maybe a change to how enfeebling magic works. It's my understanding that @ end game enfeebles get totally screwed up against HNMs and the like.

[Callisto]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

FUUUUUUUUUCK I'm going to be stuck in meripos for the next 3 months now!

I don't even know where to start for RDM...probably going to max Slow II and maybe toss 1 more level into Phalanx 2.

I really, really hope they make group 2's go 3 > 4 > 5 > 5 > 5, because 25 points to cap one ability is pretty nuts.

Also, I don't care about the damage reduction, I'm psyched for the PLD spell simply because of the increased chance to skillup Shield faster, mine uncapped from RDM when I hit 58 PLD, and thanks to ToAU the XP flows in a hell of a lot faster than the skillups(not necessarily a complaint, just saying).

And I actually wish I had levelled BRD after this JA came around, so many times I spent facepalming because the party was too fucking stupid to line up into a simple L formation so I could ballad the mages and PLD at the same time.

[Phanex]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Originally Posted by Phanex
But they haven’t given whm anything to help them out in Party situations much, other than giving us 3 different sources for Refresh, but how often will a party need a WHM when they have a COR, BRD and a RDM already?

Repose and /Sch sub?

Aye and I use that, but I mean a JA for WHM, not something they gain from a sub. Although /sch does help out a lot, it would be nice to have more JA under WHM, Pre-merits. At least seperate Devine Seal JAs.

[Mhurron]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

I can swing a sword, enfeeble a mob and cast elemental magic one after the other. That the first and latter are not as good as specialists in those skills is called a trade off. It is what RDM is.

[Callisto]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Also, I am refraining from bitching about the lack of RDM update for 2 reasons:

I'm holding out hope that the accuracy boost of a capped Slow II is substantial, the potency will be getting closer to Elegy which is very nice...

And if you don't think a capped Bio III is broken in regards to DoT solo you're nuts.
______________________________

On the subject of what RDM "needs" the only thing that truly comes to mind is something that allows them to melee with a sword while still performing their mage duties, and maybe a change to how enfeebling magic works. It's my understanding that @ end game enfeebles get totally screwed up against HNMs and the like.

That.

I can manage to melee when it's viable on my own, it's called merits and expensive gear. You want a RDM update, make it possible to enfeeble things like Hydra or Khimaira more often than once every 10 minutes with BLM sub.

[Ziero]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Aye and I use that, but I mean a JA for WHM, not something they gain from a sub. Although /sch does help out a lot, it would be nice to have more JA under WHM, Pre-merits. At least seperate Devine Seal JAs.

Well Repose is still something that was added to help support parties, though not a JA. However I do think Divine Viel should be it's own 38+ JA on a 1 minute (minimum) timer.

[Dim Mahk]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Thanks for that clerification Kitalrez