Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008) (OLD)

[Akashimo]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Dear Lord, no. Monks don't need more damage.

Monk, the only true DD ^_^

Besides, I think the main reason nothing triggers off of Summoning Magic is that, for a very, very long time, Summoning Magic was second only to Guard in terms of difficulty in acquiring skillups.

If you had a lot of stuff actually work off of Summoning skill, you'd have Summoners everywhere moaning about how unfair it is that they have a slow-growing skill that defines how well they perform.

Pretty much sums it up there.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Once again, if you want something nice and new that you don't need, buy a goddamn puppy.

Not to mention that there's this cool little feature in the game called "Job Change". Bored by a specific job simply because it hasn't changed in 4 years? There are 19 others you can play.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Wait, wait, wait.

MNK didn't deserve an update? What's the other job besides RDM that hasn't seen an update in just as long?

Oh right, that would be MNK, right?

If MNK is getting its turn now, how far off are we from the RDM update? Probably next update, maybe the one after, definately sometime this year.

And who's complaining again? They guy who still hasn't learned refresh yet. You're still playing in the Dark Ages of RDM, YM. The job is hell and misery before Covert and Refresh.

[Raydeus]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Lets just remove refresh from Rdm, that alone would make me grin as things burned down.

Man I would happily trade Refresh for Auto-Refresh. I'd feel bad for all the magic users out there but native Auto-Refresh would own.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

How is that any sillier than Cure spells not needing Healing Magic? :p There's plenty of weirdness going on in the game.

Besides, I think the main reason nothing triggers off of Summoning Magic is that, for a very, very long time, Summoning Magic was second only to Guard in terms of difficulty in acquiring skillups.

If you had a lot of stuff actually work off of Summoning skill, you'd have Summoners everywhere moaning about how unfair it is that they have a slow-growing skill that defines how well they perform.

That's another skill SE needs to fix.

Spoken like a true DD-only Warrior.

WTF? Read between the lines man.


And I say again, what the hell is wrong with giving jobs that have gotten nothing for a long time something? No really, what the fuck is with the animosity towards giving out new shinies? Does it hurt anyone? Usually not. All it does is breath new life into jobs that some people may be tired of, and that's always nice. Or would you prefer we never do any more updates again, ever? I agree that asking for an update simply because you haven't had one in a while is a little weak, but at the same time... 4+ years is a tad extreme. Especially when everyone else is getting stuff.

[Omni]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

it's funny how much fail is in rdm's that complain about their job not getting attention.

how many of the jobs can you say is virtually needed/useful in all situations? that tells you quite a lot right there i would think.

[Raydeus]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

WTF? Read between the lines man.

And I say again, what the hell is wrong with giving jobs that have gotten nothing for a long time something? No really, what the fuck is with the animosity towards giving out new shinies? Does it hurt anyone? Usually not. All it does is breath new life into jobs that some people may be tired of, and that's always nice. Or would you prefer we never do any more updates again, ever? I agree that asking for an update simply because you haven't had one in a while is a little weak, but at the same time... 4+ years is a tad extreme. Especially when everyone else is getting stuff.

While I agree there's nothing wrong on giving people new things to work with from time to time regardless of if they are really needed not (and RDM is long overdue on getting at least something new to work with), I think the dictionary man was referring to you disregarding the ability as not needed even though it makes a lot of sense for tanking WARs out there.

Or maybe not. /shrug

it's funny how much fail is in rdm's that complain about their job not getting attention.

how many of the jobs can you say is virtually needed/useful in all situations? that tells you quite a lot right there i would think.

Don't go there, you will only make yourself look like just another resented player who never got an invite so he is angry at the world because of it.

A job being popular or useful has absolutely nothing to do with it getting new things to work with. All jobs need new things from time to time to keep things interesting.

[Akashimo]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

A job being popular or useful has absolutely nothing to do with it getting new things to work with. All jobs need new things from time to time to keep things interesting.

QFT
Exactly why Rdm and Mnk need new shinnies.

Whm is due after those, just because we already gotten Recall and Repose.

Blm I would say the same too with Whm. And Summoner as well.

Then the ToAU/WotG jobs.

Then all the others who already gotten more than enough shinnies.

That order only.

[Sevv]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

And where would this "Ulgath" be, Sevv?

I think you mean Uleguerand Range

For the amount of time I spent in that zone overall (not counting a few jorm fights) I am surprised I knew how to Ul{Tab Key}

Man I would happily trade Refresh for Auto-Refresh. I'd feel bad for all the magic users out there but native Auto-Refresh would own.

Auto Refresh is only 1mp a tick =P

it's funny how much fail is in rdm's that complain about their job not getting attention.

how many of the jobs can you say is virtually needed/useful in all situations? that tells you quite a lot right there i would think.

Omni i miss you come back more, and wtf cerberus go

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

And I say again, what the hell is wrong with giving jobs that have gotten nothing for a long time something? No really, what the fuck is with the animosity towards giving out new shinies?

Because a "shiny" is just wanting something because other people are getting something. Never mind the fact that what they other jobs are getting is needed, RDMs bitch they're getting nothing because they want to feel included.

Let me ask you this - why do you think BRD is getting an update just now. Don't even point to Raptor Mazurka, that was indeed a shiny and an abused one that got nerf. SE had plans on the drawing board for BRD and they never came for two years since they were initially announced, Group 2 merits not withstanding.

Why would they be getting around to BRD just now? Could it be that SE was satisfied with all the adjustments they had made to COR since December of 2006 up until March 2008? I think that played a big part of it. There was a lot to adjust between COR and BRD and COR was left untouched adjustment-wise for most of its first year. Not only that, they had to make sure whatever they did with COR that it didn't stomp all over the toes of RNG, to boot.

Now what does RDM have to be balanced against? Quite a few more jobs, to be honest. WHM, BLM, SCH are its mage counterparts and arguably COR would be its closest melee counterpart skillwise. In terms of part support, COR, BRD, SMN and SCH would also be counterparts.

Are you starting to see what a delicate situation this is? Push this job too far this way or that and you risk throwing a lot off balance with RDM.

Let's look at what SE did with SCH. There was a lot of initial fuss over its update in March, but I think the update was sound in execution because no matter what SCH can do, it comes at a trade of not being able to do something else proficiently. If SCH chooses to cure in Dark Arts, casting time is longer and more MP is spent; depending upon which subjob a SCH uses, they also must sacrifice Strategem charges to perform certain duties.

If I sub WHM, I don't really have to use Addendum: White, but if I sub RDM or BLM I'd have to use Addendum: White often for Erase, status cures or Reraise. If I want to use Tier IV Black magic at all, staying in Dark Arts and Addendum: Black is completely mandatory, to get any protection while in this mode, I must defer to WHM or RDM subs and spend MP at a higher cost and longer casting time.

Can I Accession > Stoneskin while in Dark Arts? Nope.
Can I Ebullience > Thunder IV while in Light Arts? Nope.

All these little checks and balances are in place to keep SCH from being everything at once. Its the class to come closest to RDM since FFXI started and certainly excels ahead of RDM in terms of healing and nuking, but it totally is dependant on the choices made and SCH can really only specialize in one area at a time. If SCH pushes to be everything, it loses a lot of Strategem charges in the process.

Now let's look at RDM, which can practically be everything at once with no consequence.

See the problem?

Much like COR had to be adjusted ahead of BRD, SCH had the come ahead of RDM. If BRD and RDM got priority over these jobs just because they had been around a long time, players wouldn't feel inclined to play the other jobs because they would appear somewhat halfassed or come off as novelties. SE wants these newer jobs to be just as viable and attractive as the old ones.

All that said, RDM is getting an update in the next version update. If you can't see those Group II merits as more worthwhile now, I don't know what the hell to tell you. Yeah, its not "new" stuff, but its one hell of a boost when you look at the data.

[Mhurron]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Star Wars Galaxies is a perfect game. Because I have no clue where to even start to fix it.

Your logic is awesome.

Non sequitur, try being less retarded.

Something may be broken, you may feel that it is. However with no good, thought out solutions, or even anything to lend to the discussion beyond "I WANT EVERYTHING MY WAY," you're doing nothing but whining.

Simply because you have no good ideas does not mean however, that there are not broken or there are not problems. You seem to be unable to comprehend logic at all.

Give X something for no other reason then they haven't got something recently is not a fix, it is not a well thought out request and it is not useful or interesting in the slightest. It is whining like a spoilt little brat.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

What Raydeus said. It just seems like you don't see it as needed because you don't have a problem with WAR being DD-only. That said, note that I agreed that I think Retaliation was weakly implemented. If they want to make WARs into tanks, they're going to have to try harder than that. Atm, it's just a war/dnc TP trick. That's the closest we can get.

I'll get back to you in a couple years when I'm finally toting some Koenig.

-----

For the record, this is completely opinionated but I do want to see MNK updates. I'm hoping that whatever this thing is, it's good. But I agree with Armando -- it just looks like they gave them another way to auto-attack. That's saddening. What I've been wanting to see from Monks is a defensive trick. And no, Mhurron, I don't know how it would work because obviously I'm not brilliant enough to get hired by S-E. But ideally, it'd be something that doesn't work very well in tandem with shadows.

The idea: Monks subbing NIN is as useful as a DRG subbing NIN. probably less so. I'd like to see Mnk, as the most true DD, be the undisputed king of /war. Do nuts damage proudly.

Incidentally...

In exchange for a penalty to attack delay, the monk receives an increase to damage and attack power, as well as a bonus to the amount of TP gained per kick.

Damage and attack power? English typo, or they're saying that the kicks will be treated as a 2-handed weapon afterall.

[Kailea]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

people complaining about jobs they dont even play, and others wanting things that are not even needed, this is the typical update talk.
Its not like bitching is going to magically make something different in the upcoming update -.-


I would admit though, make summoning skill a little easier to get and base summons power off of it.
RDM could use something
2h weapons need a better ACC rate then 1h
DRG needs more control over pet
PUPs need better AI for pet
NPCs need to beable to be summoned more
WAR needs something to beable to tank so we could have another one ;p

I could think of more....but I just woke up -.-

[Armando]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

Because a "shiny" is just wanting something because other people are getting something. Never mind the fact that what they other jobs are getting is needed, RDMs bitch they're getting nothing because they want to feel included.

BBQ, how did PLD need the a spell that increases block rate and reflects some damage back on the mob? Note the usage of the word "need." Does it change how endgame mobs are going to be tanked? Does it change how EXP parties are going to be tanked? Does it address some deficiency PLD had? And how did MNK need a different way to Autoattack? Did DRK really need to have Absorb-Accuracy after getting Absorb-TP, Drain II and Dread Spikes? Did Retaliation fix WAR tanking?

The only job that really seems to have gotten something it needed is BRD (and even then you could argue that BRD didn't really need it to perform its role well, but I'm not touching that one.) EDIT: And THF and BST.

I'll say this again, in my opinion PLD really didn't need this update. Yes, I am grateful; yes, I am very much looking forward to it. But hell, I shield a lot as it is, I can tank without Defense food and I put out a decent amount of damage while doing that. The whole PLD bitchery about NIN being better ended years ago. My job is getting more longevity AND offense just because.

Yes, YM is being petty and needy but it's entirely human to want an update for your job after you see DRK get 4 unique and genuinely useful DRK-only spells, see PLD get its own spell that makes the job better at what it does as well as having all of its JAs overhauled, and your job hasn't gotten any direct attention for a long-ass time. Again, WAR got a Counter JA and MNK got a JA that gives them a different way of doing the exact same thing they were doing, and NIN got a cheaper way to Sneak. S-E could've just as easily replaced any of those updates with a new parlor trick for RDM and it would've been just as fair.

I'm not defending the bitching and the moaning for new toys, just the notion that everyone should get new toys even if they don't need them. Let me remind you that BLM was given Scythe skill just because. Yeah, ideally RDM should get its new shinies after everyone who really needs an update gets theirs, but SE clearly isn't prioritizing that way.

Damage and attack power? English typo, or they're saying that the kicks will be treated as a 2-handed weapon afterall.

Probably means the MNK will take more damage?

[Karinya]

Re: Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

You seriously think I don't have ideas? Do you know who you're talking about?

Give the Two-handers' boost of DEX -> Accuracy to One-handers; there is no reason this should not be done, and it won't break Dual-Wield; not to mention, Absorb:ACC officially killed off Dark Knight Accuracy jokes forever.

That would completely break dual wield, which is a very good reason it should not be done. Are you forgetting how sick dual wield was before the 2h updates? Or that it often relies on sub-A-skilled offhands (joyeuse, ridill) and/or multihit WS (rampage, DE)? More acc would mean more TP gain and more ws damage, or for people who are already capping their acc, they could ungimp their atk and start hitting hard enough to really hurt.

DW already comes with zero-MP near invulnerability (which is even better for rdm, because fast cast works on it in addition to whatever haste gear you may have). It's fine for it not to also be a zomg awesome damage buff *when subbed* too. Really. (As a main you can already get, what, 30% delay reduction out of it? Reduces TP per hit, but the DoT is ridiculous...)

If you just want to make a few jobs melee better, just give them some good melee gear that doesn't come from Dynamis freaking Tavnazia. There's no need to throw 2handers back into the shade, lock WAR back into one subjob, etc.

Scratch all the Merit spells and make Paralyze II, Blind II, and Slow II each scrollable at maximum Merit strength at much lower levels. For crying out loud, Paralyze is level 6. Blind is level 8. Slow is level 13. Each of their "upgrades?" 75. Does that follow? What would it feel like instead of past-sub-level Ancient Magicks being made in to II Merit spells it was just Stone II, Water II, Aero II, Fire II, Thunder II, and Blizzard II? Ooh! And for White Mage, Cure II and Protectra II and Shellra II ALL as 75 Merit spells! You can imagine how us Red Mages feel about them now. Even Enspell II would've been a better idea for Merit Spells, considering we get the first and last of those spells at 16 and 27, respectively.

This is just dumb. Cure caps at 30 hp healed, which you can reach around level 10 IIRC, and a level 75 whm cures for... 33, maybe 36 if their gear is awesome. So if they want a bigger cure, they have to spend more MP.

Paralyze at level 6 will stop an attack that would have done maybe 10 damage. Paralyze at level 74 will stop an attack that would have done maybe 100 damage. For the *same* MP cost and base duration.

Enfeebles already get better depending on the strength of the mob being enfeebled, because they work as percentages. Paralyzing, slowing, or blinding a strong mob *prevents more damage* than paralyzing, slowing, or blinding a weak one, even if the actual proc rates are not different (which they are because you can stack more stats at higher levels too). Similar principles apply to Silence, Gravity, Bind and Sleep. Bio and Dia lower atk/def by a percentage, so the more the target has, the more it loses. Poison just plain does more tick damage based on your enfeebling skill.

Frankly, it's *good* that we don't have to keep moving to more expensive spells to accomplish the same relative effect. In EQ sleep spells had level caps - to sleep a level X mob, you had to use at least a level Y sleep spell, which cost more MP than a lower level sleep spell. In FFXI sleep 1 works just fine in endgame content (except on immune bosses, but lots of endgame content also includes some non-immune mobs).

Then with merits you have the *option* of spending more MP to get a bigger percentage of effect. You don't have to buy those merit spells, and if you do buy them, you don't have to cast them every time, if the higher cost isn't worth it. But you have the option.

I don't think the suggestion of giving every RDM about 150 merits worth of free spells really deserves much specific comment. (Although your avatar sums it up pretty well.)

Also, I wouldn't mind enspells II, but they would have been a totally retarded idea for merit spells. Merit abilities should be useful at endgame content or what's the point of getting them? And using enspells, even stronger ones, on an HNM or a Dynamis/Limbus mob would be silly. It's enspells that should be a scroll if they are added at all.

And speaking of cast times, Doublecast. At 30 or 35. Come on, S-E, this Ability's a Red Mage classic.

So classic, in fact, that we get it not at level 30 or 35, but at level 1. (The translated name is different, but IIRC, the Japanese name, as well as the effect, is the same.) And it's not just doublecast, it's about 20-cast.

Insane pwnage? Why yes, yes it is. That's why it has such a nasty recast. But it's still a signature ability of the job and expands the range of what we can do in a quite remarkable way. Many signature abilities from FF5 and other past games have been adjusted or made into 2hrs because they would be grossly unbalancing otherwise. (You can't Barrage every round or with melee weapons; Defender isn't total immunity to physical attacks, and the ability that *is* is, guess what, a 2hr; DW and 2 handed weapons affect your attack delay; SAMs don't have a 50% crit rate like FF5, or the 97% evade you could get in FFT; etc.)

It would be interesting to have a kind of speed seal, probably on a 10m timer like DS/ES, that would make the next spell (only) cast at chainspell speeds. I could certainly think of uses. But I can't really say that RDM *needs* it, because RDM is already an awesome job - and putting it at a subbable level might be a very bad idea. (Imagine it in the hands of a BLM...)


Anyway, there's only one thing sillier than claiming RDM needs more toys, and that would be claiming NIN needs more toys. (Which, unsurprisingly, has also happened on this thread, but I'll let a career NIN smack it down, this post is long enough.) Cause, you know, those are two jobs that are just never invited or wanted to anything because they're such horrible gimps right now and have been for the last 5 or so years.