New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

The thing is, we already do. People are fucking nit-picking at this point.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

The thing is, we already do. People are fucking nit-picking at this point.

yeah I know, thats why I find this whole argument stupid ;p

and of course Feba does not help -.- taking every little thing anyone says, and turns it around to sound dumb

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

What needs to be done is done.

If what 'needed to be done' was needing someone to tank, would you tell a melee that didn't want to tank to 'voke? Or level an entirely other job because "you're a melee, it's your JOB!!"?

Your only excuse for saying "You play X job, thus you must do X" is RP. We all know that jobs are perfectly capable of being bent to do things they weren't intended to do. We also all know that it's nobody else's business how your character is equipped when you didn't agree to follow their rules (by joining their party, or event LS, or so on)
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No, Kailea, dumb things sound dumb without my help. When you want to say something like "This is what you are SUPPOSED TO DO", with no valid rationale beyond the story, that is RPing. If you want to RP, more power to you, but most people are not going to take it seriously into account in their gameplay.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

What needs to be done is done.

If what 'needed to be done' was needing someone to tank, would you tell a melee that didn't want to tank to 'voke? Or level an entirely other job because "you're a melee, it's your JOB!!"?

Your only excuse for saying "You play X job, thus you must do X" is RP. We all know that jobs are perfectly capable of being bent to do things they weren't intended to do. We also all know that it's nobody else's business how your character is equipped when you didn't agree to follow their rules (by joining their party, or event LS, or so on)
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No, Kailea, dumb things sound dumb without my help. When you want to say something like "This is what you are SUPPOSED TO DO", with no valid rationale beyond the story, that is RPing. If you want to RP, more power to you, but most people are not going to take it seriously into account in their gameplay.

how is a WHM healing/buffing Roleplaying? that is what a WHM does!

again I never said any of this in an RP manner, its not RP, its what the jobs basically do, and I even said its not 100% they do other things sometimes, but in normal conditions it is what they do.

I never stated about equipment or gear swapping or anything like that, I dont care what you have on, as long as its not out of the way wrong. (aka WHM wearing STR things)

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

that is what a WHM does!

And your validation for this is RP-- "White mages are healers" is a story statement, not a gameplay one. The same goes for any statement which says "X group does Y action!".

again I never said any of this in an RP manner

Whether you intended to, or not, that's the only validation you can come up with for it.

but in normal conditions it is what they do.

Wrong. "Normal" is objective. What's normal for EXP is a very bad idea in Dynamis, is a very bad idea against an HNM, is just plain silly in EXP. Any person who can play any game (sports, board games, and video games) worth half a damn knows that what works for one situation doesn't work for another; that what would be a horrible idea in one situation would work beautifully in others. When you try to shove square blocks through round cookie cutters, you're just making things more difficult, not better.

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Can we lose the anger and sarcasm please? Also I was one of the first people to suggest SE change EXP for cures/raising but people on here knocked me down for it because "people would die on purpose to get uber points for raise" or something to that effect...

Support roles need to earn more EXP than they do know. I also want them to do away with the damn time restrictions on EXP/AN.

[Ayrlie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

you got nothing to lose in getting yourself killed in campaign with the allied tags on, just make sure you can reraise in some form or another (I always go /whm whenever possible).

beastmaster jobs are godly in campaign. in certain zones I have found that pets can simply tank mobs and hold hate on pure damage output. As a result beastmasters can solo normal campaign mobs using pet swaps. In some cases, pets can tank 2 normal campaign mobs at once.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I find it funny that this argment is still going on -.-

I respect all who take their time to heal me, in PTs or what ever I am doing, dont take this as me taking healing for granted, I know that with out you guys, I would suck.

but......

this is fact, not some made up BS

WHM = healing/buffing
BLM = nuking/debuffing
RDM = healing/buffing/debuffing
other mages = mix of dudies
BRD = buffing/debuffing
PLD,NIN = tanking/DD/DoT (depending on PT setup)
all other melee = DD/DoT

Whether I like it or not, I'll admit, the above generalizations are relatively true...


... in an experience party.

However, Campaign is not an exp party. The rules change a bit in Campaign, and those tank/DoT/DD jobs are a lot less relevant than they are in an exp party.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Whether I like it or not, I'll admit, the above generalizations are relatively true...


... in an experience party.

However, Campaign is not an exp party. The rules change a bit in Campaign, and those tank/DoT/DD jobs are a lot less relevant than they are in an exp party.

yes but relevant or not, that is still what they do, even in campaign

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Yeah, DDs still DD, tanks still tank.

But buffer/healer/debuff/nukers also DD, and they tank too.

It winds up looking like this:

WHM = DoT/DD/tanking/healing/buffing
BLM = DoT/nuking/debuff
RDM = DoT/tanking/buff/debuff/nuking/healing
SCH = DoT/nuking/debuff
SMN = DoT/DD/buffing
BRD = DoT/buffing/debuff
PLD, NIN = tanking/DoT
all other meleé = DD/DoT/occasional hate grabbery.

The priority becomes--for everyone---to meleé. WHMs and RDMs have been proven to tank rather impressively, maybe needing another class to grab hate temporarily. Keep in mind that a DD class is still not necessary for this. The jobs normally relegated to support/healing/etc can handle DoT just fine by themselves, occasional spike damage through nukes. And of course, they've got their own buffs covered.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

There are 2 sides to the story, one is the idealistic "working together to defeat the beastmen armies" and the other is the "getting as much xp and notes as possible".

Ideally one would be equal to the other, but just as in any capitalist concept the final result here is completely based on each individual's performance.

And mages simply don't get paid (for everything they would normally do to assist in the battle) as much as DDs do. So the only answer right now is for mages to become DDs themselves and do that which is better rewarded.

That doesn't mean mages have stopped helping, at least in Fenrir mages still do magey stuff to help others. But the truth is we do it at the cost of getting less notes and xp, while most DDs just swing away without worrying about helping anyone else.

Hence the [DD jobs'] refusal to sub /whm or any support subjob to help in the battle if you ask me.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

ah well yeah in camp, everyone melees ;p

I love seeing a WHM with a really great Mace walk up and just bash the crap out of a mob... its funny ;p

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

you got nothing to lose in getting yourself killed in campaign with the allied tags on

That's not true; you lose time. Time which you could be using to earn exp instead.

Same for blowing MP; RDMs like myself have good MP flow, but even that's not indefinite; Cure III > Cure IV > Cure III > Cure IV is a short string of cures, but that's already 268 MP--or ~30% of my entire MP pool gone in under 20 seconds. Keep it up, and I'd have to take a knee, even with Refresh and Convert and Sigil refresh. Which is why I tell melees to take a knee if they get low on HP (unless they have /DNC or something)--it's what I have to do if I ran low on MP if Convert is down.

Mages do not get exp for resting to recharge MP. Since melees already receive better exp than RDMs and WHMs, they can afford to spend more time resting for HP or recovering from KO. I know I go down more often on PLD than RDM during Campaign Battles--and get better exp.

[Celeal]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I had seen formidable whm/nin tanks in Campaign, really impressive.

[Empedocles]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I'm gonna try a thread summation here, let's see if I get it correct:

Melee: "Waaah I'm getting wailed on, I needz a cure."
Mages: "wtf, I'm getting 50 melee's all crying for a cure, but the cons far outweigh the pros."

Squenix's solution to this problem is: "Throw more NPCs at them!"