New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

IMHO, to get better exp/reward from Campaign Battles, the players (any job-combos) should take care their own safety, help each others in Campaign, and NOT drag others down.

For example, instead of the healers do all the curing/raise on DDs, which healers get less exp. (Campaign exp. cap for curing) and the DDs get more exp. (damage output exp. caps higher), the DD can /DNC, /NIN or /mage for better survival and the mages can deal dmg at the mob while performing supporting role, so that everyone can get better exp + reward.

On my server, I have seen "non-tank" jobs like SAM, MNK, RDM, BLU... tank in Campaign just fine.

Agreed. Compromise is a wonderful thing.

Huh?
Personality has nothing to do with this. Playstyle does and it seems most people understand that Campaign is an individual event. If it wasn't, you would be forced into party. You know, like Assault, Eihnerjar and certain campaign ops.

That is exactly what is being said. Because that is all a mage would have time to do.

Besieged and Campaign issue XP in relatively the same way, you can cap out in either place.

Oh, you mean the same way every DD is beating at it too?

Since I soloed my BST to 75, and did it on the back of a pet tanking, I would say it is the same thing as you are describing.

A selfish mage will be a selfish melee. We've already seen examples in this thread of people who do help out others at their own expense, regardless of whether they're melee or mage.

And please point out where anyone said that all a mage should do in Campaign is cure everyone. Go ahead and try and find anything close to being that kind of "demand". All anyone asks for is for mages to be more willing to help others. Is that too much to ask?

And Campaign is NOT an individual event because everyone there is in the same "party" as you. Once those tags go up you ARE a team, just like Dynamis, Besieged and Eihnerjar. It's why we can all beat on the same mob.

And Besiege grants a solid Exp cap reward dependant on any action you take on other members on Besiege or the Monsters. It doesn't matter what you do, it all adds up. Campaign rewards different bonuses based on every little thing someone can do, including self buffs, dealing damage, taking damage, curing and so forth. It's why a lvl 50 Whm can go into Besiege, run around curing and raising people and still make as much Exp as the lvl 75 fully merited DD. So yes, it's very different.

And what else do you expect a Damage Dealer to do other then deal damage? Are you saying they should sub a mage job and cure you?

And when your pet is an actual living, breathing, individual then you can say Bst soloing is the same as Campaign. But seeing as your pets are disposable NPCs at your command, they're very different from killing things side by side with other PCs.

In an exp party, how much exp a mage gets depends on how well the entire party operate. Melee, the same.

In Campaign Battle, a mage looking to refill exp buffer does as well as he looks out for himself. Melee, the same, plus whatever he can leech off of overly kind mages.

A Red Mage like me can spend the entire battle tabbing around looking for people to cure for meager amount of exp and blowing MP pool fast, or look for unclaimed monster and solo those for FAR MORE EXPERIENCE POINTS.

If a "tank" I'm curing gets 2300+ battle after battle while I'm getting 1500, guess what? I'm going to start tanking myself instead.

Selfish? Sure.

But, not any more selfish than "Cure me, you random mage, so I can keep hitting and not resting so I can get more experience points." In fact, it's far less selfish, since I don't demand a thing from other melees or mages.

Go level /DNC. Or, invite healers to do Campaign Battles with. Otherwise, mages are in Campaign Battle to get experience points, not spending the entire time tabbing around to find whiny melees to waste MP on.

* * *

When Campaign was new and JP players were crazy about them, I frequently joined JP parties, and had a great time doing the party RDM thing. They knew I was getting less exp for my effort, and thus was extra polite and thankful. I even showed up as /BLM at times to handle crowd control, relying on fellow party and alliance members to raise me if I go down.

Fast forward to today. What is it with some NA melees complaining here that mages to weren't helping them when they never send a /tell in-game? What's with the guilt trip thing on forums? What's with this sense of entitlement? What's with all the whining?

With the past JP parties, I may be getting less experience points, but it was pleasant and enjoyable. With NA attitude of attitude of "I deserve this, so you gimp your exp for my benefit", I rather just ignore you. >_>b

I love how you lump all NAs to have some sort of selfish attitude...which you share yourself. And tanks that make 2300 per fight are curing themselves, that's why Plds have such an awesome advantage in Campaign. They can cure, buff, debuff, take hits, deal damage and do it all over extended lengths of time without outside assistance and all from their main. And again, no one is saying a mage should spend an entire fight tabbing around looking for people to cure. Let me repeat that since so many people ignore it. No one is saying a mage should do nothing but cure. All we're saying is it'd be nice if you helped instead of just thinking about yourself. It's something I ask of melees as well seeing as we're all working together in this event.

"Ludicrous" is the word you were fishing for.
"Ludacris" is a rapper.

And I wasn't comparing, I was differentiating. If you want to think Campaign is like soloing, fine, but that's nowhere close to the truth.

At any rate, the whole point to these physicians being phased is that players have proven SE wrong once again that we're not all good little cooperative angels, but selfish little bastards. This was probably on the drawing board well in advance, but only to be implemented if it was actually needed. Apparently, SE it was needed.

Hopefully this means they'll also rescale curing to give more EXP, though I find such a measure to be a sad commentary on players just looking out for thier own bottom line instead of playing cooperatively.

And I wasn't replying to you with that statement. Perhaps you should read before you post, because I was saying that Campaign was NOT a solo effort all along. However I should know better then to expect you to read an entire post.

Though thank you for correcting my spelling on a single word in such an asshat-ish fashion. And I doubt this was being added because it was "needed", it's most like being added because it will be another aspect of the war that we will experiance.

Personally, I hope they rescale the Exp to provide bonuses for wiping out the entire wave while preventing dmg on the towers. If that were to happen it would give players a much better reason to work together.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Yes, it really is selfish of people to expect other players to get less exp per battle because they don't bring their own way of healing or damage avoidance along with them.

AGAIN I'm not saying "be our curebucket slave," all we're saying is if anyone is tanking the mob directly, toss us a cure/raise on occasion. Even a melee/DNC or PLD/DNC or anything /WHM will go down eventually if he has no support.

Its not been a constant problem for me in campaign, but it is an annoyance to see three/four mages clustered around a mob meleeing without curing anyone and watching the other players around them drop like flies

The flawed logic of mages (and to an extent, tanks) in Campaign is that they seem to think melees shouldn't tank. Anyone can tank in campaign, I do it all the time on COR/DNC and I'll tell ya Slug Shot is one hell of a provoke. My amusing name usually grabs me a cure or haste or raise just fine. Maybe they just do it for an amusing screenshot, I dunno, but I've seen plenty of times where people are left for dead.

And going back to what Lmnop said before and I also emphasized - this should not have to be another situation where I'm forced into a certain subjob. I never get to RNG/SAM or BST/WAR in PTs unless I'm PTing with my friends, which is a rarity these days. I didn't level these subs just to to have them sit unused.

I'm fine as COR/DNC, it works and I like it, but its not the only thing I want to go as sometimes.

[Nuriko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I'd love to see them just lose the XP cap ... I'll happily go WHM/THF and SA Spirit Taker the mob for MP to cure others. Oh, wait, I do that already, since the mobs sped up...

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

So it seems I'm a Physician.

That's pretty much what I do on campaign except I also debuf mobs. But hopefully they will be kind enough to raise me when I get killed in La Vaule without reraise on, since I'm usually the only one fighting campaign there.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I'd love to see them just lose the XP cap

I don't think RMTs need help levelling, though. They already exploit the barspell/song spam, get evaluated, repeat thing. That needs to get fixed anyway.

[Karinya]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

If you just want occasional cures/raises/etc, you get that anyway (at least on Carby - I've rarely seen anyone dead for more than a minute unless they're either in a huge pile of corpses, or died way the hell far away from everyone else and nobody even knows they're there). I frequently get cured on drg/whm, which is pretty much a waste of time since I can do the same thing much cheaper as soon as I drop below 50%. But I still /wave or /bow or whatever, because they were trying to help.

If you want them constantly - go to hell. Mages don't come to campaign to make 500 exp while you make 2k+. If SE wants to adjust the rewards so that a player can play a support/healing role and get good exp for doing it, then I bet some players would do that (although some would just enjoy the role change from merit, nothing wrong with that either IMO).

But as long as 80%+ of Campaign exp (and AN, which you need to rank up even if you have way more than you could ever spend on gear) comes from dealing damage and taking damage, of course everyone is going to want to do that as much as possible. Duh. That's what the content is (currently) designed to reward.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

AGAIN I'm not saying "be our curebucket slave," all we're saying is if anyone is tanking the mob directly, toss us a cure/raise on occasion. Even a melee/DNC or PLD/DNC or anything /WHM will go down eventually if he has no support.

And who exactly is saying that they won't toss out the occasional cure. No one. It's when there is a constant expectation of those cures and raises that it becomes a problem.

The flawed logic of mages (and to an extent, tanks) in Campaign is that they seem to think melees shouldn't tank. Anyone can tank in campaign, I do it all the time on COR/DNC and I'll tell ya Slug Shot is one hell of a provoke. My amusing name usually grabs me a cure or haste or raise just fine. Maybe they just do it for an amusing screenshot, I dunno, but I've seen plenty of times where people are left for dead.

Why should melee have to tank if everyone can do it, and it's not a party situation?

And going back to what Lmnop said before and I also emphasized - this should not have to be another situation where I'm forced into a certain subjob. I never get to RNG/SAM or BST/WAR in PTs unless I'm PTing with my friends, which is a rarity these days. I didn't level these subs just to to have them sit unused.

Fantastic. Except this game is full of situations where certain subs are more useful/necessary than others. Does it suck? Sure. But that's the system we've had for years.

Nothing in your post even addresses the question of WHY mages should spend their time in campaign getting less exp per battle because melees that they aren't even partying with want to solo without having to take the necessary precautions (different sub, or meds) to do so.

[LilithAngel]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

My biggest problem is when I'm tanking a mob and not one, not two, but three mages are all wailing away on it without even trying to help me out. It won't be long before I die...then it turns to them...and they don't last long.

Few pages late, but I don't care. This line wins this thread. Period.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

LoL I love reading these campaign whine fests.

1. I am not your cure bitch in regular parties, besieged, let alone campaign when I am on RDM. You might get lucky I might toss you a cure hell I may even be super nice and toss you a haste. But you better be doing some pretty fine work to earn it. If I so much as notice im doing an incling more damage or that mob turns to me for whatever reason you bet your ass your cut off.

2. I am not your cure bitch part 2. If I notice you die I may give you a raise, but you better not be afk, if I drop MP on you congratulations you just cost everyone in the zone to go without a raise. Im not here to prance around healing xxx melee or xxx tank, I am here to out damage 90% of you and tank the mob myself, or go solo one for that matter.

3. Cure me for once provide me support. All you melee who run around /WHM or /RDM to last a little longer in campaign hows about you toss some my way. Seeing as I am out damaging and out tanking your sorry asses time to repay the favor. Ill take cure 3's -na spells protects and shells.

Im tired of everyone assuming a mage is there to support you. Im not taking a cut to my rewards for you. If you dont like it go level RDM or WHM so you can last forever on your own.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

You know, it sounds reasonable, a simple melee would like a cure/raise tossed on him occasionally. People think "wow these mages that are replying, and saying leave us alone, are jerks!" But let's put this into perspective....this is not just one person asking for this, this is nearly every single melee and tank that is out there doing Campaign. So one wants it and sees another getting it and then he wants it and then the next one sees it and wants it and then the next and the next and the next........and pretty soon the mages exp is going down the crapper because so many others want hastes/cures/raises/etc. that they don't have time to do what they want to do. Is that reasonable??.......NO IT'S NOT! Stop trying to make the mages out as the bad guys. There are steps you can take to protect yourselves and why don't you want to? What is so wrong with subbing whm/dnc/rdm? Because you feel gimp?? Get over it. Cause you can't do super duper uber dmg?? Seriously get over it. Because you are too cheap to buy a rr item? Hate to say it but, too bad for you. Because you don't have one of those subs leveled?? Looks like you have some work too do and its not too hard if you use that fancy dancy exp ring that's available now!

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Seriously the people who don't want to watch each other's backs and play as a team (it's more fun when everyone's having ago at it rather than eating dirt for half the god damn battle) should just go play WoW...

Like it or not SE wants this to be a team effort (the MMO as a whole I mean). The WHM's who just melee staff and do nothing else have no place on the battlefield.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

It sounds like campaign is pretty crappy in other servers.

On Fenrir everyone gets Raises pretty soon after dying (unless it's a massive wipe, then it will take a bit longer), and cures are always given as long as there's mp for it. Besides, as a mage you can probably get way more xp/notes from healing/buffing/debuffing than you ever will from meleeing anyway.

[Empedocles]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Physicians

A new group of NPCs known as physicians will be introduced to both sides of the Campaign lineup, serving dutifully to heal and tend to their battle-wounded allies. Various oaths of non-violence prevent the physicians from engaging in open combat, and they will resort to fighting only as a means of self-defense when attacked directly. Otherwise, they will patrol the field of battle, seeing to the needs of combatants by bestowing upon them various spells of healing and enhancement.

I'm gonna LOL at those poor beastmen healers when every PC in the immediate area converges on them

Exchanging Points for Wares from Other Nations

Until now, players have only been capable of exchanging their Allied Notes to procure items offered by the nation with which they are aligned. A modification to this system, in the same vein as that made previously to the Conquest system, will now allow for the acquisition of wares from any nation. Players can, however, expect a slight markup in price when dealing with a nation other than their own.

YAY I loves this, now I can get the R/E PLD gear without having to switch from Windurst. (Anyone else noticed that the campaign teleporters shorten it to [Win]?)

edit: I'm also on Fenrir server, and I agree with Raydeus. The raises come reasonbly quickly (I mean within 5 mins... no-one expects mages to jump on any raise like wolves) and the cures are the same... not instant, but people do tend to tab around.

I'm so awesome sun shines out of my ass and everything I touch turns to gold.

MrMageo, sometimes your trolling is amusing and other times it's not. This is not one of those times.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Like it or not SE wants this to be a team effort (the MMO as a whole I mean). The WHM's who just melee staff and do nothing else have no place on the battlefield.

No actually, many recent additions/changes have been encouraging other avenues including solo'ing. They are battling with WoW for customers and if they make it less "you have to do it our way" they are hoping to snag people wanting a change from WoW. I think its too little too late personally but I applaud them for making an effort.

It sounds like campaign is pretty crappy in other servers.

I think its more like a small group of people stomping their feet and making an issue out of something that can be easily solved with some effort but don't want to put forth that effort so they put the blame on others. Glad to know Campaign is live and thriving for everyone on your server. ^^

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Seriously the people who don't want to watch each other's backs and play as a team

Should go play solo. Which is exactly what they're doing.

Seriously, if you have that much of a problem with mages not healing, switch to a mage job and HEAL OTHER PEOPLE YOURSELF. It's a win-win, you get to help other people heal, and the mages that are sick and tired of doing nothing but curing other people can enjoy themselves.

Like it or not SE wants this to be a team effort

Massive improvements to soloing over the years show otherwise. Even BBQ will agree with that. The fact that you DO NOT HAVE TO JOIN A GROUP OF ANY SORT to do Campaign, the fact that NOBODY NEEDS TO INVITE YOU to do campaign, and that YOU ARE NOT* PENALIZED FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS IN CAMPAIGN all show otherwise.

*directly. of course if someone ISN'T doing something it could hurt you, but what they DO do is unlikely to cause you problems