New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

About the Curing thing.

Technically the only time healing has a counterproductive effect is when you run out of mp and have to rest. Since you do nothing in that time and /heal'ing doesn't give you any notes whatsoever that's the only instance where using MP to help others will hurt you.

Other than that you'll get more xp curing and doing other magey things than your would ever get from auto-attack or ws damage.


Edit > I still don't see why healing (/heal) HP/MP doesn't give you any notes, after all it would only give you notes for regained HP/MP until you were full.

[Karinya]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Last time I checked melees were holding hate and doing a lot of damage.

When a melee comes along and fights the same mob as me they *lower* my exp. (And AN - they use similar calculations.) First because killing the mob faster means I have to go find another one sooner - every point of damage he does is one I don't have the opportunity to do, and damage is the main source of Campaign exp *for all jobs, DD or otherwise*. His damage benefits him, it doesn't benefit me (the way it would in a traditional party where no matter how the mob gets dead, all members benefit equally). Second because tanking is a great secondary source of Campaign exp, if it doesn't kill you (even for jobs that aren't true tanks). And third because if the battle ends sooner, everyone gets less exp (there's no early finish bonus but you do have less time to contribute).

I'm not actually ruthless enough to deliberately kill the competition to save more mobs and exp for myself - but the competition is exactly what they are. They're really not helping me. In fact they're hurting me. Sometimes I help them anyway, but to make it some kind of expectation is just bizarre.

There are no true teams without team victory conditions. Campaign doesn't have them. Everyone, including mages, has to make individual contributions that the system recognizes as valuable or get the shaft. And the system doesn't recognize curing/buffing as valuable to any significant degree. When it helps out someone else's performance, the other person benefits and the curer/buffer doesn't. Gee, I wonder why that deal isn't so popular.

Go solo a bunny.

Why solo a bunny when I can solo a yagudo? And if I get more exp from soloing the yagudo, why should I be helpful to the person who comes along and reduces my exp? Especially, why should I reduce my exp even further to help him?

This is NOT a black and white issue. Why do you keep ignoring "occasionally curing" and read it like "full time healing" ?

Because people already occasionally cure, so the whines that started this thread must be from people who want *more frequent curing than is already done*. Which pretty much is going to mean "if you're out of MP, disengage and /heal so you can cure me some more", which directly gimps the mage's exp. AFAIK, no MP-using action is worth enough exp to make it worth resting for MP. So most mages are running on sigil, refresh gear (if they have it) and refresh/ballad/sublimation (if their job provides it). That isn't going to support cure-spamming.

Occasional curing - as in the MP you can spare without running out/too low to keep yourself alive - is exactly what most mages are already doing. It's the people who need *more* than that (because they didn't come prepared to solo) who start threads like this.

If you come to Campaign not prepared to solo a non-NM (or at least kite it into NPCs and then "solo" it with their help), you need to rethink your SJ, gear and food choices BEFORE expecting others to compensate for your weaknesses.


P.S. People who wait for others to pull in Campaign are probably doing it because they know they're lousy pullers. Campaign pulling is very dangerous. I regularly get killed by people who *don't* know they're lousy pullers, and pull a train on top of me. Usually melees, come to think of it. Sometimes after taking my reraise, I even raise the exact person who just got me killed, which is one reason it kind of gets my goat to see people whine about how mages don't do enough to help others.

P.P.S. Some of this could be solved if Campaign parties automatically shared their contribution points for all actions taken while in the party. Then if you want a backline mage you can invite them and give them a share of the exp, and if you aren't willing to do that, you can go to hell -- or to your home point.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

P.P.S. Some of this could be solved if Campaign parties automatically shared their contribution points for all actions taken while in the party. Then if you want a backline mage you can invite them and give them a share of the exp, and if you aren't willing to do that, you can go to hell -- or to your home point.

That would be nice to have, as long at there was a max 10 lvl difference cap so leech players didn't abuse it to lvl lower lvl jobs.



PS > Campaign needs to at least require generating some Emnity in order to get xp/notes. I'm sick and tired of watching those damn /brd leeches.

[Hyrist]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I personally noticed the MP drain trend going on in Campaign as well. Having taken white mages and other support jobs into my Campaign parties, a lot of the times when I hear random melee's begging for a cure, most of my mages are low if not OUT of MP, simply because of the arrival of some horribly offensive NM (or just sheer wear-down)

As a result, as a RDM I've taken a habit of subbing Dancer myself and inviting Hybrid Jobs as well as healing ones. I know I won't be able to maintain a full refresh cycle with as many things that are going on, so I gage the MP usage and alternate between Drain Samba II and Aspir Samba to further assist the MP flow.

It generally results in more cures and raises all around, but it still wasn't enough to keep up with some of the more intense fights.

This is why I'm thankful for the update. There's a lot of miscommunication between those who are thinking the White Mages and other healing classes aren't doing their jobs, when it can be something as simple of them being either focused particularly on their party or just plain spent.

And pulling away to rest is only good in brief spats, due to intense AoE spamming in many fights and the determent to EXP/AN gain by resting. This really was a catch 22 for your healing classes. I do believe it was in response to this that the Medics were released.

While I understand your perspective, and complaints, BBQ, I think from observing this in an outside perspective, that you're allowing those few who do not have the courtesy to do ask you ask to ruin your viewpoint of the whole experience for those of us who do.

Perhaps it would be wise to consider that maybe those who aren't doing this don't read forums like these, and the words you are saying may well go wasted via preaching to the choir.

In either case, by early June, it will be pretty much a moot point, or at least we all hope.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

PS > Campaign needs to at least require generating some Emnity in order to get xp/notes. I'm sick and tired of watching those damn /brd leeches.

I've complained a lot about this, these people contribute no effort to the fights at all and somehow, the Barspell and exploitation of /BRD needs to be nerfed.

That's just it, BBQ. No one is taking issue with throwing out the occasional cure. It's the EXPECTATION that is the key here.

If we were expecting mages to Cure people, then we wouldn't be out here as /WHM and /DNC now would we? If mages were curing people, then there would be no need for Physician NPCs.

Obviously the expectation was far too much from the melee and developer standpoint, so both sides stopped expecting it.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

It's like you're having an entirely different conversation.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

EDIT: I decided to not bother trying to discuss something with someone that uses insults in order to defend their opinion. It's just frankly not worth my time.

As I've said more than once, the problem is easily solved by melee/tanks doing what they need to in order to survive. I don't go hiking without my water bottle. I don't figure that my buddy has one and since she's a doctor that she should take care of me. Even though I hate wearing that old people fanny belt that holds my water bottle, I do it anyways because its what I need to do in order to make it through the hike. I'm sure she appreciates it because if I didn't, she'd be the one taking care of my sorry dehydrated rear and it would lessen her enjoyment for the day. It's common sense to take care of yourself when you know its going to be needed. It's selfish to think that others can do that for you because, for whatever reason, you don't want to.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Useless stuff about her feeling like she's got anything useful to say after admitting she didn't get the point.

Oh.

Why solo a bunny when I can solo a yagudo? And if I get more exp from soloing the yagudo, why should I be helpful to the person who comes along and reduces my exp? Especially, why should I reduce my exp even further to help him?

Are you one of those players that try and pull a mob to a far end of the zone to solo it? Thus reducing everyone's chance to gain more exp by attacking it?

You're complaining that you can't do as much damage as melee's and that recudes your exp? Why don't you go do something else other than melee'ing then? Oh i'm sorry. White Mage are melee's as of now.. Hmm..



Following is said:
Everyone for their own, though we all sign up for Campaign together. It's about nations working together.
Learn the game.
To some degree, this is true, yet it's obviously not party play. Yes, everyone should try to do what they can to survive. If a well geared Monk75 goes to campaign with Warrior subjob, he's just asking for it.

Does that explain that it's abusive to ask a Whm for a raise if a Mnk/dnc dies for once?

Blabla victims, blablabla sacrifice.

Well, we're SORRY that YOU chose to take a healer job to Campaign.

I take Red Mage to Campaigns, I'll be darned if I spend my time healing others that can't take care of myself, but I'm well too aware of what freaking job I play to not freak out when I get asked to Raise. Occasionally I help, occasionally I don't feel like it.

You don't need a reason to help someone.




Small note:

Campaign (kãm-pãn)

a series of related military operations aimed at accomplishing a strategic or operational objective within a given time and space

Oh, how about this:

Square-Enix had to implent Healer NPC's cause every single capable player was too selfish to hand out a single Cure every 5 minutes.

If all players would be like some of the mages in this thread, that statement would've been true.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Tough crowd.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

If we were expecting mages to Cure people, then we wouldn't be out here as /WHM and /DNC now would we? If mages were curing people, then there would be no need for Physician NPCs.

Which is what you were bitching about. Mages showed up to get EXP and like everyone else the best way to get it is to melee. Random mages weren't stopping to heal and raise you, lowering their own EXP so that you could get more, so you had to come as a combo that was more self sufficient. Somehow this is the end of the world, and you make snide comments about how horrible it is that mages that don't know you won't lower their own returns just to heal you.

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I'm not actually ruthless enough to deliberately kill the competition to save more mobs and exp for myself - but the competition is exactly what they are. They're really not helping me. In fact they're hurting me. Sometimes I help them anyway, but to make it some kind of expectation is just bizarre.

Some of us just have different outlooks. I see Campaign as a way to make EXP while having fun with others. I choose to be a team player and actually give a damn about everyone else. When I don't, I sub RDM for barpsells and earn about 8k/hour spamming them. WAY more efficient actually than fighting the battle normally. So no, DD is not the best way to earn EXP in a battle because you still have to alot a fair chunk of time for all the points to be added to your tally irregardless of how fast you cap out (same is true of anything else in campaign. though with barspells I can earn about 64 EXP and 50 AN every 30 seconds, or 7680 an hour give or take from lag, time between tags and travel etc)

It's about as exciting as watching paint dry but it gets the job done. I've heard of some PLD and BLU making over 10k/hour from battles but as I don't have either of those jobs that high I can't really make that happen ; ;

in the mean time this kind of EXP is pretty damn sick for my seeking lv 53 THF.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Oh, how about this:

Square-Enix had to implent Healer NPC's cause every single capable player was too selfish to come properly equipped to Campaign so that everyone could enjoy it.

Fixed.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Kitty, are you purposely trying to miss the point or just trying to be an ass?

The problem is players ASSUMING that since there will be WHM, RDM , BLM or any other healers at a campaign battle that they do not have to do anything to make themselves self sufficient because these mages will drop everything to come and keep them alive. They assume, expect and demand mages to give up the most efficient way of getting EXP and give up having what fun they might want to to keep these precious little melee's alive while they get the most EXP they can.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Did you just insult me? I hope not.

Didn't I just say, everyone has to be able to survive on their own?

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I hope not.

Why? You're easily the single most insulting person in the thread, on either side.