New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

No actually, many recent additions/changes have been encouraging other avenues including solo'ing. They are battling with WoW for customers and if they make it less "you have to do it our way" they are hoping to snag people wanting a change from WoW. I think its too little too late personally but I applaud them for making an effort.

Didn't see this earlier untill Ziero posted the quote. But I kind of agree with Ziero.

We all know that Final Fantasy XI has 500,000 users, and that WoW was around the 8 million 1 year ago, which might have gone up to 9 million.
I mean, yea they're competing with MMO customers from any game. I don't think you can mention WoW in particular. (Hence why I said some time ago that it's getting annoying seeing the typical WoW come up)

As if anyone's talking about FFXI on the WoW forums. WoW is on a much higher level than FFXI when it comes to popularity.. Why? That doesn't matter right now, we all have different opinions about that, right? I don't think you should compare those games as if they were competing. However, I do agree that they do seem to work towards getting more customers(..obviously) but also trying to make the game more enjoyable for players, on different aspects.

[Shadowneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I didn't read the whole long thread, but healers would really help. I can't count how many times I'v shown up to an area lately and had no one but NPCs for backup...and none of those can heal....

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

And once again, no one is asking mages to go around curing everyone in the zone. But I have seen, many many times, where some mage will be ineffectively whacking away at some mob's ass while a melee gets beat down while tanking and the Mage won't even try to cure them. The melee eventually dies, the mob turns, mauls the mage and they're down in the dirt....until the mage raises up, buffs and cures himself, then prances off to go beat on the next closest mob while the melee is raised by a Mnk/Whm.

Yes you are asking the WHM to heal everyone. because if that WHM skips over you for whatever reason, then he isn't doing his job (according to you) and you whine.

And for the record, I have farmed stuff for random strangers, have crafted items for people for free (as long as they provide the mats) and have helped random people kill NMs and pass on their drop.

We will nominate you for sainthood.

Cure those you feel like are doing good if that helps you against feeling like a little victim.

This is contradicting the main arguement. You are saying that WHMs should be curing. But then you put this nice little disclaimer in there to make it look like you aren't saying that. Well guess what, WHMs are curing and raising who they want, just like you are asking them to do. But if that person doesn't happen to be you, well I guess they just aren't doing their jobs. Do you guys actually sit there and watch all the whms? Do you know what is on their screens? How about maybe they are concentrating on something else, they have other friends asking for help. You don't know that. but since they are a WHM, or any mage for that matter, they need to drop everything and assist YOU!!.
Know who is being selfish.

To put it in a more clear way, something you might actually understand. Square-Enix decides whatever the heck your role in this game is. If they decide White Mage's are tanks, than that's what they're supposed to be doing.
You can only decide what you will do.

SE creates the playfield, and puts the pieces on it. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to play the way they see fit in whatever circumstance comes at them.
Just becase a Pawn can only move in two directions on a chessboard, doesn't mean it can't take down a queen. And no reason why you shouldn't try to.
But I guess since it is a pawn, it should just be sacrificed.

Yea and in their own way which is my point doesn't seem very right for someone who plays a White Mage, now does it?

Why, because you say so? This wouldn't be the first time people changed the way a job is played due to circumstance. Just wait til SE lifts the Skillup ban on Campaign, then you are in real deep trouble.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

This is contradicting the main arguement. You are saying that WHMs should be curing. But then you put this nice little disclaimer in there to make it look like you aren't saying that. Well guess what, WHMs are curing and raising who they want, just like you are asking them to do. But if that person doesn't happen to be you, well I guess they just aren't doing their jobs. Do you guys actually sit there and watch all the whms? Do you know what is on their screens? How about maybe they are concentrating on something else, they have other friends asking for help. You don't know that. but since they are a WHM, or any mage for that matter, they need to drop everything and assist YOU!!.
Know who is being selfish.

I observed. I never even actually complained about White Mage's in Campaign either. So.. huh.

SE creates the playfield, and puts the pieces on it. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to play the way they see fit in whatever circumstance comes at them.
Just becase a Pawn can only move in two directions on a chessboard, doesn't mean it can't take down a queen. And no reason why you shouldn't try to.
But I guess since it is a pawn, it should just be sacrificed.

You can also use the pawn to take 100 steps just if you want to. You can, you may, but that's not how it's remotely supposed to work. That's my point. Again with this "sacrifice" thing.. Level another job then if it feels like a sacrifice.

Saying White Mage's aren't supposed to heal those in need, is like saying 1+1=9. They are supposed to. But they don't have to.

Why, because you say so? This wouldn't be the first time people changed the way a job is played due to circumstance. Just wait til SE lifts the Skillup ban on Campaign, then you are in real deep trouble.

So people changed White Mage into a melee player?

Unworthy arguments.
I never actually complained about White Mage's, I just stated my point in what they, and Red Mage's, and Scholar's are supposed to be doing.
And I have every White Mage description provided by SquareEnix themselves or story line involving White Mage's to support my arguments.

And on top of that; my personal opinion is this:
If you really don't want to cure, then that's fine.. Though it really wouldn't hurt you to use your MP OCCASIONALLY!!!! to actually help someone, if only the tank. Because the tank, and other melee players are in fact helping you get monsters defeated. There's no reason to feel like a victim, or like being sacrificed.

Before stating a guess about how other people's whine and cry, you might want to sort out your own discomforts first with possible bad experience you had. This sounds more like you're venting because of something that happened in a Campaign.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

When someone else can

Stop right there. CAN. Not must. And farming-- other players could help you by not farming near you. Same thing with crafting. But you DIDN'T JOIN A TEAM TO WORK TOGETHER, and you're competing just as much as you are working together. Unless you have an agreement with someone to do something (such as a party, LS, or other group; or a direct agreement outside of technical terms), what the hell gives you the right to expect ANYTHING from another player, except that they'll obey the TOS?

And for the record, I have farmed stuff for random strangers, have crafted items for people for free (as long as they provide the mats) and have helped random people kill NMs and pass on their drop.

Good for you.

And let me ask you this, other then Damage and debuff, what can a Drk/Nin do to help a mage?

1- Exactly. Melees aren't directly helping mages, it would be asinine for them to expect help in return
2- Become a mage yourself. If you don't like that mages don't go around doing charity work, DO IT YOURSELF. If you don't like it, then you have NO room to bitch about people that feel the same way.

Campaign is much different,

Unless Campaign deactivates /pcmd, no, it is not. If people in campaign don't want to join your party, surprise surprise, that's because they're probably there to get AWAY from compensating for other (usually weaker, or worse) players.

And once again, no one is asking mages to go around curing everyone in the zone. But I have seen, many many times, where some mage will be ineffectively whacking away at some mob's ass while a melee gets beat down while tanking and the Mage won't even try to cure them. The melee eventually dies, the mob turns, mauls the mage and they're down in the dirt....until the mage raises up, buffs and cures himself, then prances off to go beat on the next closest mob while the melee is raised by a Mnk/Whm.

Why the hell wasn't the melee taking care of himself?

Why the hell didn't the melee have reraise on?

Why the hell should the mage be obliged to do anything for the melee?

Seriously, the very fact that they changed it so a Smn's buffs can affect everyone within range...and hopefully they add that little boon to other AoE/PT only buffs and abilities...should be sign enough that this isn't a true "solo" effort. When two people can fight the same mob at the same time, like it or not, they're a team.

Working on the same thing != team. For example, that old trees event, people were working to KILL THE GODDAMN THING, not to work together with teamwork and fairies and lollipops. It was very much not a solo event, but it wasn't a party with rules and tactics and the ability to be kicked for sucking, and the same goes for campaign.

The only way to "fix" this "problem", imo, is for SE to add bonuses to killing all the mobs, taking down the NMs, and keeping the forts safe while reworking the cap for curing. If people gained more Exp for doing things as a group while mages gained more Exp for curing then this situation will just disappear.

And what about the healers that are tired of healing? What about the WHMs that just want to kick back and beat the shit out of something? Or the ones that want to just go afk for a bit and still benefit? I mean, yes, the situation will probably improve, but not incredibly so.
______________________________

You can also use the pawn to take 100 steps just if you want to. You can, you may, but that's not how it's remotely supposed to work

Any tactic which will win is how it's supposed to work. It's a matter of winning, not playing it like it 'should'. But chess is a bad example, in any case.

The point he wanted to get across is that what SE says isn't law-- they can say WHM is a healer, but WHM/NIN in endgame can still be a great DD. They can make a new job as an enfeebler, and people will turn it into a tank. They can make a new job as a buffer, and people will turn it into a DD. They give us SMN, and we make WHMs with more MP. They give us DRG, and we use it for nothing but damage dealing. They give us BST, and we only use it for soloing. SE can have ideas for things, and they can make things capable of a wide variety of tasks, but the playerbase will tend to warp jobs to fit needed or wanted roles, instead of being what SE wanted.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Quote:
And let me ask you this, other then Damage and debuff, what can a Drk/Nin do to help a mage?

1- Exactly. Melees aren't directly helping mages, it would be asinine for them to expect help in return
2- Become a mage yourself. If you don't like that mages don't go around doing charity work, DO IT YOURSELF. If you don't like it, then you have NO room to bitch about people that feel the same way.

Last time I checked melees were holding hate and doing a lot of damage. Hence my suspicious thoughts about you not even actually playing this game. You just like to discuss. That would be fine! But you're not discussing, you're arguing without arguments! You don't actually even reply to what people say, you invent your own reply which LOOK like you're replying, but you're not.

Stop right there. CAN. Not must.

Like this for example! "Must" never was the issue. What, you going to get banned if you don't Cure?? No! But you ARE supposed to heal others cause that's what medics (aka White Mage's) do, so it isn't stupid to say that it would be good for a White Mage to actually not be a leecher and use only a FEW helpfull spells.
And if you still feel like a victim, then only cure those you feel right about. Like the one who's currently tanking. Or what? You're making it sound like White Mage's are abused, and that no one deserves any of your cures at all.

Why the hell should the mage be obliged to do anything for the melee?

The melee was tanking it. And even then, the mage still isn't obliged, even though he should cure out. It's common morals and gameplay roles.

And what about the healers that are tired of healing?

One could answer this with a simple cruel answer like you would say if you randomly decided to argue for the melee's:

Go solo a bunny.

Or the ones that want to just go afk for a bit and still benefit?

Yea. Because White Mages that don't do jack really deserve that too. And melee's don't.

Your only argue is literally being inside a "/pcmd" party or not. And your whole preeching about that it's not a party with tactics and what not.. You really believe just a group of random people attacking stuff works better than a bit of jobs aiding eachother out?

This is NOT a black and white issue. Why do you keep ignoring "occasionally curing" and read it like "full time healing" ? You're arguing without reading and trying to understand our points at all. Why do you do that? For a higher post count?



You're being an ignorant, argumentless job-racist.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Last time I checked melees were holding hate and doing a lot of damage.

Melees are holding hate because they can. Mages can also hold hate and do damage. Can (all of them) tank as well, or do as much damage? No. But the melee isn't doing something to keep the mage alive-- if the mage has to cure the melee; if the melee isn't there, the mage doesn't have anyone to cure. If the melee has to deal and take damage, he's going to keep doing that whether a mage is there or not. He might not survive as long, but that's a different matter.

"Must" never was the issue.

Yes, it was. If people didn't feel that WHMs had an obligation to heal people, there wouldn't be an issue.

You're making it sound like White Mage's are abused, and that no one deserves any of your cures at all.

No, I'm saying that unless you have an agreement with a player to do something, you shouldn't expect them to do it. If you're a WHM and you walk by me while I'm soloing some low job, am I gonna appreciate a buff, or some cures? Yeah, almost certainly. If I'm lying dead, would I appreciate a raise? Of course, and I might even pay you for your troubles. If you walk by and I assume you're going to help, should I get pissed when you don't? Of course not. Even if I die, it's my own damn fault, it's my problem, and it's my job to make sure I'm either prepared to solve it or deal with it.

The melee was tanking it.

And he would've been tanking it without the mage there. What is he doing for the mage in reciprocation?

And hey, maybe that's the problem, maybe SE needs to add spells that allow melee to help other players too.

Go solo a bunny.

Are you crazy? Unless bunnies have been significantly nerfed since I left, that would be suicidal. Bunnies have some of the worst attacks regular mobs have.

Yea. Because White Mages that don't do jack really deserve that too. And melee's don't.

I wasn't saying it's right; I'm saying it's a fact that if people can go AFK and still benefit, they will. It's also a fact that there are some 'healers' that just don't want to heal. Making healing more attractive than hurting enemies may not improve the situation much; that's all I was saying there.

Feba, you're being job-racist.

First of all, that makes no sense, unless I was saying Galkas couldn't be mages or something. Secondly, I'm not biased towards or againstany jobs in particular, at least as far as this argument is concerned. Personally, I hate healing jobs. One of the reasons I started to loathe BLM was the thought of having to level WHM as a sub. I also grew to dislike mage jobs in general towards the latter part of my time in FFXI; it just got boring to stand back, press button, wait, press another button; and so on. Melee wasn't much better, but at least there I didn't have to deal with farking MP. If I showed up to campaign on my BLM/WHM? Yeah, I'd probably heal people. I spent most of my time in besieged going around raising people and occasionally curing a general or seriously damaged people. However, the idea that I'd be REQUIRED to is absurd.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

You've proven you're unable to come up with valid arguments.

You fail to pick up anything in a sense of "It would be better" and you read those as if it said "They must."

At the bottom of your post, you say required again. Your replys are empty, no matter what the statement is, trying to proove the statement wrong, if you don't come up with anything, you use the childish method of implenting a sarcastic "joke" or use the very original method replying something obvious, pretending to having missread the statement. And if both don't work, you're trying to find points that really don't matter to the whole topic at all, like the thing with rabbits being hard to fight. Only and entirely just so you could at least put a countering reply.

If you really don't care, then why bother? I'm not sure if you understand the point of a discussion, it's working towards a solution. You seem to have no intention to this. A discussion doesn't work if you don't try to listen to someone.. As I keep seeing us both saying the same things, you somehow try to twist it in a way as if were from two different planets. Are you afraid of something?

Again and again I keep saying, it isn't about "must" or "required" to heal; but it would be more logic and moraly better to do this. Logic, as they're infact healers. Once again do I say this, but I'm sure once again you won't understand. You say that the melee's aren't helping mages at all, right before you say that melee's are possibly (..Which makes me think you never played this game at all.) doing more damage or able to tank better.

It's a shame, I really was hoping for us to actually come to an understanding, or you bringing up an actually valid argument, so I could believe you were mature enough to be someone worthy of discussing with.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

if you don't come up with anything, you use the childish method of implenting a sarcastic "joke"

Actually, that bunny comment I originally intended to add in a comment about how it's quite possible someone couldn't earn as much EXP solo, especially not with as much ease. My brain probably just forgot about it because it was assumed it would be so obvious that anyone who has ever played FFXI would know about it.

And if both don't work, you're trying to find points that really don't matter to the whole topic at all,

Like talking about how someone is 'incapable of coming up with valid arguments', instead of arguing yourself? If you feel someone doesn't react reasonably in arguments, stop arguing with them. I have a few posters here I don't even bother replying to because they can't understand simple logic. Murphie refuses to continue an argument past a few posts with me because he doesn't like the fact that I am strong in my opinions and do not back down without proof I am wrong. Most of the times people have thought I was wrong, they were misunderstanding what I was saying (usually my fault because of the words I chose, and their arguments were usually valid against the fictitious viewpoint, but still not what I actually meant), I really have no problem with being wrong, it just doesn't happen often. If I hold to an opinion, a lot of times I'm hoping that someone can come up with something better, or at least interesting. It doesn't happen often, but I very much like it when it does. If I don't have anything to say on a subject, I stay the hell out of arguments; that's why I don't reply much to stuff concerning jobs and equipment, even when I did play it's just not something I really care about much.

Now, if you really don't feel I'm interested in making valid arguments, stop arguing with me; that would just be feeding a troll and you'd be hurting the forum yourself. If you do, stop with the insulting crap and I'd be happy to talk to you about the subject at hand.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Wow, this whole thing started as a simple off-hand comment from 'kitten that was blown out of proportion.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Why the hell wasn't the melee taking care of himself?

Why the hell didn't the melee have reraise on?

Why the hell should the mage be obliged to do anything for the melee?

In many of the cases that I have seen, the melee IS taking care of himself, has reraise on, has the situation under control, and then enters the mage who spams Dia, Banish, tier 1 nukes, or Bio, and horribly low melee damage.

In short, the mage is feeding the mob horrible amounts of TP while offering little to no worthwhile contribution to the fight and is actually the cause of the melee's death because the mob becomes an insane WS spamming machine. Those are the mages that I have an issue with, because I see this as little other than MPKing people.

If you don't want to do anything worthwhile in a fight, then the Eldieme Necropolis is that way, go whale on some fortifications.

Thankfully however I see little of that. I do however see alot more of the mages not healing people aspect.

As far as mages not healing other people, whether you like it or not, yes, you really should heal the tanks if they need it, and I stress the, heal the tanks if they need it, part.

Granted, most people tanking can take care of themselves. However there are always times when things go wrong and whoever is tanking could use a little extra loving from the mages.

Quite often you will be fighting with the same people against several mobs, this is easily enough time to gauge how good of a tank the other person is and to find out their capabilities. You can learn when the person needs a cure and when they don't. I rarely see a mob bouncing back and forth between people, I would have to say that the mob is focused on one player 90% of the time, so I don't really see the "Can't tell where the mob's attention is" arguement. Most of the time, the mobs who are bouncing between players are the NMs, and frankly that's a whole other matter altogether.


This is as much solo work as is Besieged. While I don't think mages should be personal cure bots I do think that they should be assisting as needed.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Wow, this whole thing started as a simple off-hand comment from 'kitten that was blown out of proportion.

and the first World War was all started by the assassination of one guy. But that's a gross oversimplification ignoring all of the context in the situation, such as existing tensions and events.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Also needs to be considered that Feba's army is composed of robots for the most part.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Oh, I'm fully aware of the underlying tensions and complexities involved in Campaign inter-player dynamics and the advent of NPC support. Campaign's rather amusing and ironic existence as a counterpoint to rather oppressive, job-exclusive speed skilling parties and the irony inherent in complaining about player conduct in one and not the other is also not lost on me.

I was just musing over one offhand comment resulting in such polarized views. It seems no one who plays this game believes in moderation.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Yes you are asking the WHM to heal everyone. because if that WHM skips over you for whatever reason, then he isn't doing his job (according to you) and you whine.

SE creates the playfield, and puts the pieces on it. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to play the way they see fit in whatever circumstance comes at them.
Just becase a Pawn can only move in two directions on a chessboard, doesn't mean it can't take down a queen. And no reason why you shouldn't try to.
But I guess since it is a pawn, it should just be sacrificed.

Why, because you say so? This wouldn't be the first time people changed the way a job is played due to circumstance. Just wait til SE lifts the Skillup ban on Campaign, then you are in real deep trouble.

Really? I'm asking you to go cure that guy who pulled a mob into a corner of the zone? I'm asking you to tab around and cure any and all PCs who ever get hit? I'm asking you to stop everything when someone dies and instantly run over to them and cast cure?

Because I'm not. What I am asking is that when you and some random melee are fighting the same mob, it would be nice if you could help keep him alive. No one is losing out, no one is being forced into anything, and no one is being "sacrificed".

[quote=Feba;782420]Stop right there. CAN. Not must. And farming-- other players could help you by not farming near you. Same thing with crafting. But you DIDN'T JOIN A TEAM TO WORK TOGETHER, and you're competing just as much as you are working together. Unless you have an agreement with someone to do something (such as a party, LS, or other group; or a direct agreement outside of technical terms), what the hell gives you the right to expect ANYTHING from another player, except that they'll obey the TOS?[quote]

Ok, here we go.

Campaign is not competeing. You're not going to "win" by doing more then another player. But you will all do better by working together. See, this little thing called COMMON COURTESY, it helps everyone.

1- Exactly. Melees aren't directly helping mages, it would be asinine for them to expect help in return
2- Become a mage yourself. If you don't like that mages don't go around doing charity work, DO IT YOURSELF. If you don't like it, then you have NO room to bitch about people that feel the same way.

Funny thing, when a mage solos mobs in campaign, they usually have to cast a lot of buffs. However the exp cap on buffs can be hit rather quickly, so while you're tanking the mob, spending time casting buffs on yourself just to stay alive, the mage and melee, who are working together, will make more Exp because the Mage just needs to cast a few cures then they can go back to meleeing and *gasp* earn more exp. I know I earn more Exp when I let others tank asd I can go full DD and not have to recast shadows every 30 seconds. And Mages are no different.

Unless Campaign deactivates /pcmd, no, it is not. If people in campaign don't want to join your party, surprise surprise, that's because they're probably there to get AWAY from compensating for other (usually weaker, or worse) players.

And there's no chance that these players aren't the weaker, worse ones themselves? And as far as I'm concerned, if you can hit the same mob as me, we're working together.

Why the hell wasn't the melee taking care of himself?

Why the hell didn't the melee have reraise on?

Why the hell should the mage be obliged to do anything for the melee?

They subbed /nin and shadows were down? They subbed Dnc but can't keep up with the Dmg on their own? They subbed /whm and quickly ran out of MP?

The beastmen control the zone and they can't buy it? They're not from that nation and can't buy it? Resources in that zone are low and they can't buy it?

Because the melee is keeping the mob from tearing your face off? The melee tanking the mob means you can focus more on DD while only curing occasionally as opposed to constantly recasting buffs?

Working on the same thing != team. For example, that old trees event, people were working to KILL THE GODDAMN THING, not to work together with teamwork and fairies and lollipops. It was very much not a solo event, but it wasn't a party with rules and tactics and the ability to be kicked for sucking, and the same goes for campaign.

Yes, because working to achieve the same goal is so much easier to do when everyone thinks of themselves.

And what about the healers that are tired of healing? What about the WHMs that just want to kick back and beat the shit out of something? Or the ones that want to just go afk for a bit and still benefit? I mean, yes, the situation will probably improve, but not incredibly so.

Healers tired of healing? Well since you're so fond of it, why don't you take your own adivce and play(assuming you actually did play) another job. Whms who just want to beat stuff up? Well they can do that a lot better when they're geared for DD and don't have to recast their buffs constantly! And that can easily be accomplished by helping others to help yourself.

And I don't give a rats ass about people who want to go afk

Melees are holding hate because they can. Mages can also hold hate and do damage. Can (all of them) tank as well, or do as much damage? No. But the melee isn't doing something to keep the mage alive-- if the mage has to cure the melee; if the melee isn't there, the mage doesn't have anyone to cure. If the melee has to deal and take damage, he's going to keep doing that whether a mage is there or not. He might not survive as long, but that's a different matter.

Seeing as you have never done campaign then it's no surprise you have no clue what you're talking about. People will stand and wait until someone pulls a mob. Both Melee and Mages. This is because it's safer and easier to kill things in a group. But when the Whm just happily whacks along with the other 4-5 people and the pld is being supported by the Drk/Whm there's a problem.

I wasn't saying it's right; I'm saying it's a fact that if people can go AFK and still benefit, they will. It's also a fact that there are some 'healers' that just don't want to heal. Making healing more attractive than hurting enemies may not improve the situation much; that's all I was saying there.

Going AFK in campaign gets you nothing, 'healers' who don't want to heal can, as you so often suggest, play a different job, and if more Exp could be gained by healing more people would be curing because it would benefit themselves more.

Seriously, teamwork. It's not a bad thing.