New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Seriously the people who don't want to watch each other's backs and play as a team (it's more fun when everyone's having ago at it rather than eating dirt for half the god damn battle) should just go play WoW...

If you're playing solo, you aren't playing as a team. How hard is that to understand?

Like it or not SE wants this to be a team effort (the MMO as a whole I mean). The WHM's who just melee staff and do nothing else have no place on the battlefield.

That doesn't mean that everything has to be a team effort. Some solo content will not make FFXI a single-player game.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

How hard is that to understand?

well duurrrr obviously if you aren't in a group 24/7 you might as well just log off and play an online game. I mean it's not like MMOs provide a living breathing world that isn't possible in offline games or anything. Soloing is a waste of an internet connection.

[WovenDarkness]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Soloing is a waste of my internet connection.

FTFY.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

That's not really fixed.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

/busts out Walkie-talkie.

CO: "We need a medic back here."

Medic: "Piss off, I'm soloing! Why can't you be more self-sufficient?!"

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Because that's a realistic analogy.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

White Mage description in manual:

"White Mage's duty is to aid those in need"

Campaign:

"Multi-player event"


Find the best suitable balance that fits you in how much you wish to aid people.

When I do Campaign as Red Mage, I make sure I have fun and do enough damage, occasionally use Enfeebling Magic and hand out a high cure or a raise as it's part of my role as Red Mage.
That's just how I personally see it right.

If you want to protect yourself from being "exploited" by noobs that keep dying:
Raise a player once, ignore him the second time.


This isn't about what you have to to do. You're free to do what you want. It's about what you're supposed to be doing.

A White Mage that doesn't want to heal? Their own choice.
A White Mage that isn't supposed to heal? Valkurm Dunes.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

That doesn't even make sense.

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I find it funny that a small select few are so adamant about mages. For the record, I campaign 98% ofthe time on MNK/NIN. This is so I don't have to rely on mages. Also, right after I get tag, I get an instant reraise. Why, cause it isn't a mages job to run around and blow 150 MP to raise my ass because I got in over my head. Mages already get less xp especially blms, so why should I cause them more loss.

I just started going SMN/WHM. It is only 51 so I can't do too much, but I use my summon to buff anyone around. Why, cause I like to help a little, and it helps my XP.

Anyway, looking forward to the changes

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

/busts out Walkie-talkie.

Yeah, because it's not like you have to JOIN the military, and it's not like you're clearly working toward a common goal or acting with specific roles as part of a team. Just walk up and they'll give you a rifle, and let you do whatever you please!

It's about what you're supposed to be doing.

You're supposed to be having fun, and fighting off the beastmen. Clearly a WHM who is engaged in combat is doing that, in their own way at least. If you're in a party where you were invited to heal? Yes, that is what you are SUPPOSED to be doing. If you're not in a party? Go nuts. Or do you also expect WHMs that aren't in parties to go walking around areas randomly looking for people to cure, and helping those who need it? I mean, obviously a WHM leveling their NPC isn't aiding those in need, so they shouldn't do that, right?

Campaign:

"Multi-player event"

This too.

Yes, it's a multiplayer event. Newsflash, SO IS 99% OF FFXI. Farming? Multiplayer. Crafting? Multiplayer. Hunting NMs? Multiplayer. But you wouldn't give money or crystals to other farmers, and you certainly wouldn't give another player an NM drop just to 'help those in need', just because that's the description in the manual.

The economy is multiplayer as well, but you don't expect people with lots of gil to give it to those with little, just because the person without much gil needs equipment.

Why is it that you expect WHMs to go out of their way to be good little communists and spread their wealth, but everyone else can just sit back and not help them in turn? Again, newsflash, if it's that much of a problem for you, you can become a mage yourself. If you want to have a party atmosphere, INVITE PEOPLE TO A GODDAMN PARTY INSTEAD OF JUST EXPECTING THEM TO DO CRAP FOR YOU. I did it all the time in besieged-- make alliances of people, spread the mages out between them. That was done mostly for the benefit of being able to find people to cure/raise easier, as well as a few party only buffs (refresh and ballad were very helpful to me, I'm sure others benefitted as well)

[Karinya]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Besides, as a mage you can probably get way more xp/notes from healing/buffing/debuffing than you ever will from meleeing anyway.

If this were true the problem wouldn't exist. Actually, even a mage gets 5x more exp from damage than from healing and support. Everyone who wants mages to be their own personal healer NPC should actually do a campaign as a mage, spending the whole time healing and supporting others and not meleeing, and see what reward they get for that. Then they'll understand why mages don't do that more often.

Of course, most of the people who are whining about this couldn't be bothered to level a mage if their lives depended on it. Literally, since their lives DO depend on it in Campaign and they still won't do it.

For the record, I do most of my campaigning as drg/whm. I provide my own reraise and cures, and you know what? I still do enough damage to pull mobs off other DDs, because you don't need a subjob to do good damage when you have A skill in a decent weapon (i.e. not club or staff, which have lousy stats). Of course I don't do *as* much damage as I do as drg/sam, but I still do enough to earn 2k+ in long enough fights.

I have to admit that I never provoke to save anyone when I'm playing drg/whm, though. :D

[Nuriko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

The WHM's who just melee staff and do nothing else have no place on the battlefield.

If they're meleeing staff and not tossing spells every now and then, they're idiots, or they don't have Spirit Taker. That's workable damage, and can give a good chunk of MP for meleeing, essentially ... no reason not to use it up before you get the next chunk. The ones with a scrap of a reason for not flinging off so much MP are the ones using club. After all, the club MP-back WS aren't nearly as good as Spirit Taker...

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

If they're meleeing staff and not tossing spells every now and then, they're afk, or they don't have Spirit Taker.

FTFY

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Feba, everytime I read your posts related to Ffxi, I really wonder if you're even actually playing, why the heck you're even on this game, and if your replys are meant to state a point or just be provoking.

Farming and crafting can't be done alone without involvement of others, compared to the event called "Campaign" where all people sign up to work together towards defeating the beastmen? .. Like, What? You do play Ffxi right?

"Help those in need" OBVIOUSLY refers to the use of White Magic.

To put it in a more clear way, something you might actually understand. Square-Enix decides whatever the heck your role in this game is. If they decide White Mage's are tanks, than that's what they're supposed to be doing.
You can only decide what you will do.

What's there even discuss about? Do you really think it wouldn't be more the way it's supposed to be going if White Mages cure others? As with many discussions where your arguments get tossed aside, you're just replying random stuff as much as you can without even thinking about what you're saying.

White Mages are supposed to heal others. If you don't like that, create your own game where White Mage's are actually melee classes.

Your whole point about giving gil to others is really stupid. It's called White Mage, not Gil Giver. Duh.

Why is it that you expect WHMs to go out of their way to be good little communists and spread their wealth, but everyone else can just sit back and not help them in turn? Again, newsflash, if it's that much of a problem for you, you can become a mage yourself.

This is nearly making me fall of my chair! How can you say something stupid as this!! What is this involving communism?
No one forced anyone to be a White Mage. If you want to be a White Mage, then do freaking White Magic! And what's this about everyone else sitting on their back? You speak like mages are victims of the (virtual) world. They can do a ton lot more than melee's can, they generally can solo much better than melee's! Melee's(Damage Dealers) do damage, other jobs do their thing. Everyone does their thing. You don't have to go Curing people that just stand around. :S

And I didn't really expand this point very much; but no. You don't have to let yourself get exploited. All I'm stating, it would be much more fitting to OCCASIONALLY(in case you missed this in my previously stated opinion) for White Mages to use a White Magic spell once in a while, such as a Cure or a Raise. You don't have to keep Raising people that keep dying, then you're near to be exploitted, yea, duh!

Hence I mentioned this:
"Find the best suitable balance that fits you in how much you wish to aid people."
Cure those you feel like are doing good if that helps you against feeling like a little victim.

Does that all seem so weird to you? You're making a fool out of yourself by saying White Mage's aren't supposed to heal outside party's. This isn't about party's. The Manual nor any other White Mage description says: "You have to help others. In party's." It's like you don't even know what a White Mage is.

fighting off the beastmen. Clearly a WHM who is engaged in combat is doing that, in their own way at least.

Yea and in their own way which is my point doesn't seem very right for someone who plays a White Mage, now does it?

if it's that much of a problem for you, you can become a mage yourself.

You're supposed to be having fun, and fighting off the beastmen.

See? You're not even reading everything, let alone using your bains.

When I do Campaign as Red Mage, I make sure I have fun and do enough damage, occasionally use Enfeebling Magic and hand out a high cure or a raise as it's part of my role as Red Mage.

Feba, I'd love for you to come up with a reasonable argument that's worthy of being discussed. Because if you think about it, just for one minute... You might find we're actually nearly precisely on the same side.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

No actually, many recent additions/changes have been encouraging other avenues including solo'ing. They are battling with WoW for customers and if they make it less "you have to do it our way" they are hoping to snag people wanting a change from WoW. I think its too little too late personally but I applaud them for making an effort.

I don't think FFXI is "battling" WoW for customers as many people interested in both will frequently bounce back and forth. Though they're the same genre, they're two very different games and can satisfy people in different ways. The increase in soloing/small group events is more because it's so hard to find lower lvl pts these days and people don't want the big 30 man end-game fights anymore. I mean, even soloing in this game is done "SE's way" and it's still not something everyone can really succeed at.

Yes, it's a multiplayer event. Newsflash, SO IS 99% OF FFXI. Farming? Multiplayer. Crafting? Multiplayer. Hunting NMs? Multiplayer. But you wouldn't give money or crystals to other farmers, and you certainly wouldn't give another player an NM drop just to 'help those in need', just because that's the description in the manual.

Why is it that you expect WHMs to go out of their way to be good little communists and spread their wealth, but everyone else can just sit back and not help them in turn? Again, newsflash, if it's that much of a problem for you, you can become a mage yourself. If you want to have a party atmosphere, INVITE PEOPLE TO A GODDAMN PARTY INSTEAD OF JUST EXPECTING THEM TO DO CRAP FOR YOU. I did it all the time in besieged-- make alliances of people, spread the mages out between them. That was done mostly for the benefit of being able to find people to cure/raise easier, as well as a few party only buffs (refresh and ballad were very helpful to me, I'm sure others benefitted as well)

When someone else can randomly walk up and kill the mob I'm fighting while farming, or "help" me HQ something mid-craft or join me, without an invite, to take down some massive NM, then they'll be comparible to Campaign. Seeing as the second you get those tags everyone is on the same team, people should be willing to work together.

And for the record, I have farmed stuff for random strangers, have crafted items for people for free (as long as they provide the mats) and have helped random people kill NMs and pass on their drop.

And let me ask you this, other then Damage and debuff, what can a Drk/Nin do to help a mage? How about a Mnk/Dnc, what are they going to do to support you? And I guess you expect that War/Whm to main heal you with their mighty 200(?) Mp? Party making works in Besiege because it's a limited event with hundreds of people in a single zone. Mages will cure and buff there regardless of in party or not because it caps their Exp just as fast as if they were DDing. Campaign is much different, as you can spend 10 minutes in a zone with 20 people or an hour in a zone with 2 people. And other then a few choice spots, people will come and go as soon as the fight starts and stops.

And once again, no one is asking mages to go around curing everyone in the zone. But I have seen, many many times, where some mage will be ineffectively whacking away at some mob's ass while a melee gets beat down while tanking and the Mage won't even try to cure them. The melee eventually dies, the mob turns, mauls the mage and they're down in the dirt....until the mage raises up, buffs and cures himself, then prances off to go beat on the next closest mob while the melee is raised by a Mnk/Whm.

Seriously, the very fact that they changed it so a Smn's buffs can affect everyone within range...and hopefully they add that little boon to other AoE/PT only buffs and abilities...should be sign enough that this isn't a true "solo" effort. When two people can fight the same mob at the same time, like it or not, they're a team.

The only way to "fix" this "problem", imo, is for SE to add bonuses to killing all the mobs, taking down the NMs, and keeping the forts safe while reworking the cap for curing. If people gained more Exp for doing things as a group while mages gained more Exp for curing then this situation will just disappear.