New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Lunaryn]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Physicians

A new group of NPCs known as physicians will be introduced to both sides of the Campaign lineup, serving dutifully to heal and tend to their battle-wounded allies. Various oaths of non-violence prevent the physicians from engaging in open combat, and they will resort to fighting only as a means of self-defense when attacked directly. Otherwise, they will patrol the field of battle, seeing to the needs of combatants by bestowing upon them various spells of healing and enhancement.

(shadowy moogle figure) : Finally, it's about time the beastmen got their pixies, kupo! Er, I mean... muahaha?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

First, I noted the number of qualifiers in this post. I will do this as long as that isn't happening, or I don't mind assisting, as long as I am not busy. Quite contradicting.

I think being three zones or half a zone away attending to my own business is a fair reason not to help. This is vastly different from the common scenario Ziero depicted of a PLD tanking a campaign NM with three mages wailing on it and letting him die.

Secondly, if you are by yourself, then campaig = solo. As was stated, you want help, make a party. Also DD are far more guilty of just doing their own thing than any mage I have seen. And I don't mean guilty in a negative sense.

To define solo, it means actually doing something by yourself. See that sword by your name? That never appears next to my name when I'm BST or RDM or DNC out in god-knows-where soloing for my level. When you take on that sword icon, you become an ally to everyone else who has that sword icon. Don't babysit your allies, but goddamn, help them out if you can.

So lets stop using the flimsy definition of "soloing" in Campaign. Its not really soloing when an actual player is tanking a mob for you. Campign is a larger group effort comprised of many individuals, the moment you join, you are an ally. Act like one.

If you are so fed up with the way mages are, then become one yourself and stop bitching about it. It will solve two problems: 1. you wont have to look for a mage to save you, and 2. you can "show" others how it is "supposed" to be played. However, I have a feeling that you will go the same way as other mages.

75 SCH, 75 COR, 75 BRD and 65 RDM; I do all these things to help allies that I bitch about RDM and WHMs not doing. So I'm not just speaking from a high horse, I actually do pitch in and raise and cure where I can.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Its not really soloing when an actual player is tanking a mob for you.

Except they're not. I don't see them running to my aid when OMGWHATISTHAT comes out of nowhere and puts an end to my battle quite quickly. They are hitting a mob, I am hitting that mob. That is the extent of what they are doing for me. Unless they're a WHM, most likely they're putting out more damage then I am and so they have the mobs attention. When someone hits harder then they are, that other person will get hate and the first person who was supposedly tanking for me will let the other person handle it, because they weren't tanking for anyone.

You want to define Campaign as something other then soloing. Thats fine, it's a free for all. I am free to heal anyone or not. I have no reason to do otherwise when I am not in a party. I, like everyone else there, am there to get the maximum EXP/Limit points I can and that may or may not include healing anyone other then myself when I am not in a party.

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

75 SCH, 75 COR, 75 BRD and 65 RDM; I do all these things to help allies that I bitch about RDM and WHMs not doing. So I'm not just speaking from a high horse, I actually do pitch in and raise and cure where I can.

Here is a cookie, now shut up and let people play their own game. Just because you decide you want to play campaign that way, doesn't mean everyone has to follow your lead.

I think being three zones or half a zone away attending to my own business is a fair reason not to help. This is vastly different from the common scenario Ziero depicted of a PLD tanking a campaign NM with three mages wailing on it and letting him die.

I wasn't talking about three zones away, I was referring to the rest of that section where you said if you weren't busy, or had something else to do, you would help. Most mages in Cmapaign aren't sitting back watching you die, they are usually doing something. And chances are, when you are dead on the ground, they may not even see you.

So lets stop using the flimsy definition of "soloing" in Campaign. Its not really soloing when an actual player is tanking a mob for you. Campign is a larger group effort comprised of many individuals, the moment you join, you are an ally. Act like one.

This is not a "Flimsy" definition. You are doing an event to benefit yourself. That is it. Whether some one is next to you or not doesn't matter. Do you solo on BST, yes you do, even though you have a pet right there. And don't call it symantics, cause it isn't. And in all actuallity, that ally thing, can go for ANY part of the game. Just like Besieged, Campaign is an INDIVIDUAL event that encompasses many people.

[Chveya]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Only recently in my campaign career have I gone the route of the lolmeleeWHM/NIN. I find it to be a nice change of pace from the 73 levels of macro-routine (and don't get me wrong, I enjoy WHM overall and don't consider myself "only a curebot"). While engaged in battle, I determine who is tanking our current mob- that person gets Haste and my Curing priority. I also tab around, looking for anyone in dire need of curing. But! My focus is on my damage, my survival, and my exp, not anyone else's. This is a different approach compared to how I previously played campaign, which was basically in exp party style, minus the party, i.e. backline role onry.

While engaged in combat, I use enfeebs and enhancing magic liberally. I announce in /say when my MP is running low, just in case my tank has started to rely on my cures. I disengage from battle and find a place to hide and /heal if things get really sketchy and having MP becomes more important than a few more damage to the mob.

Even though I've never personally received criticism for 'not doing my magely duty' in campaign, the threat of accusation looms large enough for me to be /anon during the battles. As if my Noble's doesn't give me away...

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Except they're not. I don't see them running to my aid when OMGWHATISTHAT comes out of nowhere and puts an end to my battle quite quickly. They are hitting a mob, I am hitting that mob. That is the extent of what they are doing for me. Unless they're a WHM, most likely they're putting out more damage then I am and so they have the mobs attention. When someone hits harder then they are, that other person will get hate and the first person who was supposedly tanking for me will let the other person handle it, because they weren't tanking for anyone.

You want to define Campaign as something other then soloing. Thats fine, it's a free for all. I am free to heal anyone or not. I have no reason to do otherwise when I am not in a party. I, like everyone else there, am there to get the maximum EXP/Limit points I can and that may or may not include healing anyone other then myself when I am not in a party.

Much like some people are complaining about the mages who never help anyone, you're right in complaining about the melees who never help anyone. Both of those extremes are wrong because Campaign isn't a free for all. It's a group effort to defeat the enemy. However SE seems to have only decided to reward individual efforts but that could easily be fixed by adding bonus Exp rewards for taking out more mobs in less time or something. Because this "me me me" attitude, in both Mages and Melees while in Campaign, is a bad thing.

And as a Melee, when some Pld or Nin wants hate on a mob I'm tanking, I let them have it. Not because they're "doing more damage" but because they can control the mob better and keep it from hitting weaker targets far more effectively. It also allows me to switch from defenisve gear to offensive gear to do my job(which is killing the mob) better. Sadly most of thfs support JAs(including TA) only work on PT/Ally members, otherwise I'd use them to help others too. It would be nice if SE did the same for all PT only abilities as they have for Smn.

I wasn't talking about three zones away, I was referring to the rest of that section where you said if you weren't busy, or had something else to do, you would help. Most mages in Cmapaign aren't sitting back watching you die, they are usually doing something. And chances are, when you are dead on the ground, they may not even see you.

This is not a "Flimsy" definition. You are doing an event to benefit yourself. That is it. Whether some one is next to you or not doesn't matter. Do you solo on BST, yes you do, even though you have a pet right there. And don't call it symantics, cause it isn't. And in all actuallity, that ally thing, can go for ANY part of the game. Just like Besieged, Campaign is an INDIVIDUAL event that encompasses many people.

In the situation described, where one person is tanking and a bunch of mages happily melee away at something, thenyes the mages aren't sitting back doing nothing. They're safely gaining Exp while the tank gets the snot beat out of them. And when those mages don't help the person killing the same mob as them then IMO it's a bad thing.

And comparing Bst soloing to Campaign "soloing" is ludacris at worst, ill-informed at worst. Though the rewards in Campaign are granted individually, it's still a group effort to kill the mobs. You are not the only PC there (and if you are you're pretty much screwed) and many times you won't even be the only person killing a monster.

No one's saying you should just sit back and cure, or that you should heal and raise everyone, but just that it would be nice if you could use your abilities to help others who are helping you. And I say that to ALL players regardless of job. Because as you pointed out yourself when you tried to show BBQ up, a player's job can change at the drop of a hat...however a player's personality will always shine through.

And I have never, never heard of this problem happening in Besiege, mainly because of the way EXP is gained in that. But that also leads to many lower lvl people subbing curing jobs and spamming cure and raise on random people. But that could easily be fixed in Campaign by adding a lvl cap (50 would probably be best) while removing the cured Exp cap.
______________________________

Only recently in my campaign career have I gone the route of the lolmeleeWHM/NIN. I find it to be a nice change of pace from the 73 levels of macro-routine (and don't get me wrong, I enjoy WHM overall and don't consider myself "only a curebot"). While engaged in battle, I determine who is tanking our current mob- that person gets Haste and my Curing priority. I also tab around, looking for anyone in dire need of curing. But! My focus is on my damage, my survival, and my exp, not anyone else's. This is a different approach compared to how I previously played campaign, which was basically in exp party style, minus the party, i.e. backline role onry.

While engaged in combat, I use enfeebs and enhancing magic liberally. I announce in /say when my MP is running low, just in case my tank has started to rely on my cures. I disengage from battle and find a place to hide and /heal if things get really sketchy and having MP becomes more important than a few more damage to the mob.

Even though I've never personally received criticism for 'not doing my magely duty' in campaign, the threat of accusation looms large enough for me to be /anon during the battles. As if my Noble's doesn't give me away...

Anyone who accuses you of "not doing your duty" is a down right ass. You're doing more then enough to not only earn yourself buttloads of exp but help out everyone around you. And if more mages AND melee could play like you then this discussion would have never have occured.

It's the perfect example of what us "selfish melees" are asking for.

[Celeal]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

IMHO, to get better exp/reward from Campaign Battles, the players (any job-combos) should take care their own safety, help each others in Campaign, and NOT drag others down.

For example, instead of the healers do all the curing/raise on DDs, which healers get less exp. (Campaign exp. cap for curing) and the DDs get more exp. (damage output exp. caps higher), the DD can /DNC, /NIN or /mage for better survival and the mages can deal dmg at the mob while performing supporting role, so that everyone can get better exp + reward.

On my server, I have seen "non-tank" jobs like SAM, MNK, RDM, BLU... tank in Campaign just fine.

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Because as you pointed out yourself when you tried to show BBQ up, a player's job can change at the drop of a hat...however a player's personality will always shine through.

Huh?
Personality has nothing to do with this. Playstyle does and it seems most people understand that Campaign is an individual event. If it wasn't, you would be forced into party. You know, like Assault, Eihnerjar and certain campaign ops.

No one's saying you should just sit back and cure, or that you should heal and raise everyone

That is exactly what is being said. Because that is all a mage would have time to do.

And I have never, never heard of this problem happening in Besiege, mainly because of the way EXP is gained in that. But that also leads to many lower lvl people subbing curing jobs and spamming cure and raise on random people. But that could easily be fixed in Campaign by adding a lvl cap (50 would probably be best) while removing the cured Exp cap

Besieged and Campaign issue XP in relatively the same way, you can cap out in either place.

In the situation described, where one person is tanking and a bunch of mages happily melee away at something, thenyes the mages aren't sitting back doing nothing. They're safely gaining Exp while the tank gets the snot beat out of them. And when those mages don't help the person killing the same mob as them then IMO it's a bad thing.

Oh, you mean the same way every DD is beating at it too?

And comparing Bst soloing to Campaign "soloing" is ludacris at worst, ill-informed at worst. Though the rewards in Campaign are granted individually, it's still a group effort to kill the mobs. You are not the only PC there (and if you are you're pretty much screwed) and many times you won't even be the only person killing a monster.

Since I soloed my BST to 75, and did it on the back of a pet tanking, I would say it is the same thing as you are describing.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

In an exp party, how much exp a mage gets depends on how well the entire party operate. Melee, the same.

In Campaign Battle, a mage looking to refill exp buffer does as well as he looks out for himself. Melee, the same, plus whatever he can leech off of overly kind mages.

A Red Mage like me can spend the entire battle tabbing around looking for people to cure for meager amount of exp and blowing MP pool fast, or look for unclaimed monster and solo those for FAR MORE EXPERIENCE POINTS.

If a "tank" I'm curing gets 2300+ battle after battle while I'm getting 1500, guess what? I'm going to start tanking myself instead.

Selfish? Sure.

But, not any more selfish than "Cure me, you random mage, so I can keep hitting and not resting so I can get more experience points." In fact, it's far less selfish, since I don't demand a thing from other melees or mages.

Go level /DNC. Or, invite healers to do Campaign Battles with. Otherwise, mages are in Campaign Battle to get experience points, not spending the entire time tabbing around to find whiny melees to waste MP on.

* * *

When Campaign was new and JP players were crazy about them, I frequently joined JP parties, and had a great time doing the party RDM thing. They knew I was getting less exp for my effort, and thus was extra polite and thankful. I even showed up as /BLM at times to handle crowd control, relying on fellow party and alliance members to raise me if I go down.

Fast forward to today. What is it with some NA melees complaining here that mages to weren't helping them when they never send a /tell in-game? What's with the guilt trip thing on forums? What's with this sense of entitlement? What's with all the whining?

With the past JP parties, I may be getting less experience points, but it was pleasant and enjoyable. With NA attitude of attitude of "I deserve this, so you gimp your exp for my benefit", I rather just ignore you. >_>b

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

And comparing Bst soloing to Campaign "soloing" is ludacris at worst, ill-informed at worst. Though the rewards in Campaign are granted individually, it's still a group effort to kill the mobs. You are not the only PC there (and if you are you're pretty much screwed) and many times you won't even be the only person killing a monster.

"Ludicrous" is the word you were fishing for.
"Ludacris" is a rapper.

And I wasn't comparing, I was differentiating. If you want to think Campaign is like soloing, fine, but that's nowhere close to the truth.

At any rate, the whole point to these physicians being phased is that players have proven SE wrong once again that we're not all good little cooperative angels, but selfish little bastards. This was probably on the drawing board well in advance, but only to be implemented if it was actually needed. Apparently, SE it was needed.

Hopefully this means they'll also rescale curing to give more EXP, though I find such a measure to be a sad commentary on players just looking out for thier own bottom line instead of playing cooperatively.

Really looking forward to those Quests about the Freelances at any rate, I really want to know Areuhat's backstory. A race of people that can turn into dragons is kind of a big hole in this world that needs an explanation.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

At any rate, the whole point to these physicians being phased is that players have proven SE wrong once again that we're not all good little cooperative angels, but selfish little bastards. This was probably on the drawing board well in advance, but only to be implemented if it was actually needed. Apparently, SE it was needed.

Yes, it really is selfish of people to expect other players to get less exp per battle because they don't bring their own way of healing or damage avoidance along with them.

Hopefully this means they'll also rescale curing to give more EXP, though I find such a measure to be a sad commentary on players just looking out for thier own bottom line instead of playing cooperatively.

So playing cooperatively means taking less exp per fight and liking it?

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

So playing cooperatively means taking less exp per fight and liking it?

No, it means taking less EXP so bbqkitten can cap his EXP returns.

Because they demand, nay, deserve it.

[eticket109]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

As it stands right now, the cap on exp from healing is exactly 500 exp, which takes 5k healing to reach.

That's the problem right there.

Hopefully this means they'll also rescale curing to give more EXP, though I find such a measure to be a sad commentary on players just looking out for thier own bottom line instead of playing cooperatively.

Damn those developers for trying to even the playing field. Curse them.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

"The pot calling the kettle black"....thats all I see being posted.

[Illuen]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)