New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Kitalrez]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

You might want to look into doing something about that sense of entitlement, it makes you look like a complete moron.

I'd worry that you may have made him mad with this comment, but I find myself unable to tell the difference between a normal raving idiot and an angry one.

I'm not sure that putting physician mobs on the battlefield will really alleviate the situation much, at least from Kitten's standpoint. As it stands right now, the cap on exp from healing is exactly 500 exp, which takes 5k healing to reach. Basically, I hit this in 10 spells. If I'm smart, I'm hitting that on NPCs, since they have vastly more hp than PCs do and will be healed for the full amounts. I find they also have better DEF and can stand much longer beatdowns. I haven't seen many GLK PLDs who could outdo a n NPC Taru SCH at the fort for very long. Cure V + Cure IV, repeated 5 times basically caps all healing exp for me. Compare this with melee and spell damage which seem to be uncapped for exp. There really is no incentive whatsoever for me to keep healing people after these 10 spells unless I'm worried the mob's coming after me.

If you didn't bring your own healer, or learn how to dial down the burst damage enough you're not taking hate: Screw you. You're about to die, probably pretty hard. Perhaps if I really need that extra 20 exp from raising you, I'll pay you some attention. I'm not campaigning because I love the group experience on this job. I'm doing this to avoid having to spend 12 hours straight mashing the same 5 macro buttons over and over again while you trash talk the other melees about how much damage you're putting down on that defenseless pink bird. I consider you irrelevant. Bitchy, but irrelevant.

[Dim Mahk]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

O.O I see your venting alittle here Kitalrez so I'll just watch from the sidelines.

*grabs bag of flaming hot Cheetos*

[Lmnop]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

While I like the addition of Physicians (and would like to see them replace at least half of those volunteers in Besieged), I think I agree with 'Bbq.

More from the perspective that it's sad that it has to come to this. That I simply cannot go war/sam and live. It's easy for you RDMs to sit back and say "your fault for not being self-sufficient enough" when you guys are never really in danger of dying except from the things that kill everyone (hi2u 2000 damage Blastbomb of all things). And while I'm at it, those big damage AoEs are actually safer for a mage to get hit by than a melee! A DRG loses his wyvern, a charge off his RR earring, and about 5 minutes of being able to do anything w/out fear of dying again. A WHM will take less damage (MDB), likely live (more HP than DD when Stoneskin is figured in), if they do die they have free RR, oh and let's not forget that all your self-curing means low recovery time.

But then, if you want this sort of support, you'll have to go with friends or make a party.

And I don't really have a problem with that.

Just sucks if you want to play with say... Rng/sam. No one would let you do that in merits, no one would let you bring it to events, and it won't survive anything else.

But to that end, bring on the Physicians.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I agree 100% with Mhurron. Yesterday I was lvling yet another blm. I was outside of sandy with about 10 other low levels killing gobs, orcs, and sheep. Suddenly I get a /t from someone asking for a cure. I looked around me and couldn't see a soul. I figured someone was poisoned or really low and wanted to survive aggro, etc. Then I see a /sh asking for a cure for 1k. I ignored it and went about soloing. Now by some of peoples standards, I should have been this guys cure b***h even though I was solo? Screw that! I'm solo, you get your own damn cures/raises/whatever. If I feel like helping you THAT IS MY CHOICE. Just as its someone elses choice to watch me die when I get aggro even though they can provoke. I might not like it, but that is life. I usually do help others when I can but no one has the right to demand it of me when I am solo.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I have no problem being invited as a main healer in a merit party, I do just about every time I go into a merit party. I have no problem with Burn parties. However, yes, I will welcome things that change or add to party dynamics that would let me get back to being a more straight RDM party style.

I kick myself if I forget to switch to /WHM for merits because it's immensely more useful for what I was invited for.

Now then. Take a very close look at what I said there. Specifically the word INVITED. When I am invited to a party, I do what I was invited for or I don't accept the invite. In campaign, I am there solo. I have never been invited for a campaign party. I am there, just like everyone else, to get some extra EXP/Merits. I come as self-sufficient as I can be.

Now then, apparently there is a group, of which you are a very loud member of, that believes that they are entitled to a Raise, Cure, Haste and whatnot from people NOT in their party.

You're not.

No healer or player subbing a healing job owes you anything when there is no party relationship there. I am soloing in campaign for EXP, so I am going to what is going to get me the most EXP for that period of time. There is nothing wrong with this, I owe you nothing. I don't exactly see many melee jobs running to help out people who get aggro, but then again, I don't expect it.

If you want a guaranteed healer, or a raise if you need it then invite someone to do it or use a sub that lets you handle it yourself.

While I'll agree healers don't owe anyone anything, it's still nice for them to spare some MP to throw out at least a cure or raise if you see there's a need. That's not asking you to babysit anyone or anything, but it's still nice if people able to heal do so occasionally. But then again, this debate is far from something new, this has been around since people started charging for cures in the dunes and such.

My biggest problem is when I'm tanking a mob and not one, not two, but three mages are all wailing away on it without even trying to help me out. It won't be long before I die...then it turns to them...and they don't last long.

My favorite campaign experience, when not with friends, is when me as a Thf, some random 60-ish Rdm, some random Whm all "unofficially" joined up to start taking down mobs. I would be able to tank them without taking dmg thanks to the fact that the Rdm enfeebled, and the Whm would toss out Flash and Haste to help me recast Utsu. I didn't ask either of them for help, and I didn't tell them to do anything, but together we were able to take out more mobs safer then what we could have done seperately.

As someone who solos often in Campaign, this will be a welcome addition to the game.

[Ameroth]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

In most cases, as a PLD, I can keep myself alive in campaign for relatively long durations so I never really worry if the WHM/nin next to me is going to toss me a cure when I start taking more damage than I can replace. For me, it comes with the territory of trying to tank mobs in campaign battles.

While most of the mobs aren't too strong with a few people fighting them, it's the NMs that come charging through fast-casting potent -ga spells like a drunken taru finding his wife in bed with another fuzz ball. After I'm gravity-ed, silenced, burnt, bound and gagged, I die relatively easy by the hands of the smaller turtle I was tanking. Then it's just kinda funny when that WHM/NIN next to me takes hate, dies, followed by maybe someone else.

Too bad instant reraise costs so many allied notes.

Edit:

My biggest problem is when I'm tanking a mob and not one, not two, but three mages are all wailing away on it without even trying to help me out. It won't be long before I die...then it turns to them...and they don't last long.

You beat me to the punch.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

While I would like to spare Cures for the guys around me, or a Haste for the NIN over there, it gets a little difficult when, in the course of the fight, I inexplicably and irreparably take hate from Conqueror Bakgodek, who starts wailing on me like I boned his girl, and no one can spare Provoke/whatever to get him the hell off me. After innumerable cases like that, I don't feel a bit bad about fending for myself.

But animosity aside, the string of posts since 'kitten's has served to underscore a dystopic status quo that has established itself:

Don't like the crushing, soul draining, role-perverting, highly-job-discriminatory-but-very-exp/merit-lucrative speed-killing phenomenon emergent at levels 55 and up?

Then try the extremely solo-friendly, group-optional, relatively-exp/merit-lucrative-but-you-really-are-on-your-own world of Campaign.

It looks like Square's idea of balance was to counter party mechanics in one extreme with solo mechanics of the other extreme.



But anyways. The introduction of healing NPCs should be interesting. I hope the focus on the PCs a little more since, as Kitalrez mentioned, the NPCs do a little better at handling themselves. I just wish there they would do away weakness during Campaign/Besieged type events. Lack of exp penalty is nice and all, but it feels like you're chasing your tail when you're spending suffering K.O.s one after the other, and spending 5 minutes(which, I don't care what anyone says, feels a lot damn longer), at a time waiting for it to wear, all under heavy fire.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

If I'm solo and I'm halfway across a zone or three zones, yeah, what happens to you isn't my problem. What happens to you when you're soloing out in Attowah Chasm all alone is your problem.

But if I'm near you and can spot the time to do so, I'll probably raise you. Only time I don't have that level of sympathy is when someone steals my camp or tries to.

I dunno, maybe I'm just a nice guy who didn't level mage jobs for the easy invites and endgame security, but because I don't mind supporting and am genuinely interested in the jobs I've levelled to 75*. If I'm passing through somewhere and I see someone struggling solo and I'm not in some kind of hurry.

Its not a sense of entitlement that makes me disgusted with mages in Campaign, but the fact that as a person who primarily plays support and mage jobs, I know you guys have it a lot easier than you'd like to have us believe. Its a privelaged life being a mage these days especially where SCHs and DNCs can ease things up on that "curebot" stuff RDM, SMN and WHM complain about so much. Invite one of those and don't you dare tell me they're a rare commodity, they're totally all over the place these days.

So, quite frankly, those accusing me of a sense of entitlement have it backwards - you have that. I'm just looking for what I consider a common courtesy, particularly when the battlefield is strewn with a couple dozen corpses and you're the only one standing and likely to go down next.

Simply put - Campaign Solo != Solo. We're fightingalong side you and you're getting that EXP because we're killing the mobs too. No RDM or WHM can sit there and tank a dozen Campaign mobs, no matter how good Stoneskin/Phalanx is. Your survival and EXP gain is just as dependant on those around you as yourself, partied or no.


* - I was genuinely interested in BRD at one point. It just ceased to be fun when people stopped calling my by my name and saw me as a merit item instead of a party/LS member.

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

People are dicks in general... but I still think this "every man for himself" attitude has to just GTFO. I agree that no one is entitled to said cures, but for fuck sake it wouldn't kill these WHM's and RDM's to occasionally take a look around at all the dead bodies and toss a few raises (which you get points for! ) or a cure to the tank who might just be going under in a few seconds.

No one is demanding 24/7 attention for their HP, just a little cooperation.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I agree 100% with Mhurron. Yesterday I was lvling yet another blm. I was outside of sandy with about 10 other low levels killing gobs, orcs, and sheep. Suddenly I get a /t from someone asking for a cure. I looked around me and couldn't see a soul. I figured someone was poisoned or really low and wanted to survive aggro, etc. Then I see a /sh asking for a cure for 1k. I ignored it and went about soloing. Now by some of peoples standards, I should have been this guys cure b***h even though I was solo? Screw that! I'm solo, you get your own damn cures/raises/whatever. If I feel like helping you THAT IS MY CHOICE. Just as its someone elses choice to watch me die when I get aggro even though they can provoke. I might not like it, but that is life. I usually do help others when I can but no one has the right to demand it of me when I am solo.

As a guy who can't take a mage job past 10...especially in a pt (i'm a horrible Whm) I can honestly say that I not only expect you to completely ignore his shouts and demands for cures, I expect you to go over to him, with full HP, and repeatedly cure yourself just for the hell of it.

And for the record, I myself have literally jumped off chocobos to voke aggro off people and then die cause the mob was too strong for me. I haven't had to do this in a while, but it's something that has happened to me on more then one occasion.

While I would like to spare Cures for the guys around me, or a Haste for the NIN over there, it gets a little difficult when, in the course of the fight, I inexplicably and irreparably take hate from Conqueror Bakgodek, who starts wailing on me like I boned his girl, and no one can spare Provoke/whatever to get him the hell off me. After innumerable cases like that, I don't feel a bit bad about fending for myself.

But animosity aside, the string of posts since 'kitten's has served to underscore a dystopic status quo that has established itself:

Don't like the crushing, soul draining, role-perverting, highly-job-discriminatory-but-very-exp/merit-lucrative speed-killing phenomenon emergent at levels 55 and up?

Then try the extremely solo-friendly, group-optional, relatively-exp/merit-lucrative-but-you-really-are-on-your-own world of Campaign.

It looks like Square's idea of balance was to counter party mechanics in one extreme with solo mechanics of the other extreme.

But anyways. The introduction of healing NPCs should be interesting. I hope the focus on the PCs a little more since, as Kitalrez mentioned, the NPCs do a little better at handling themselves. I just wish there they would do away weakness during Campaign/Besieged type events. Lack of exp penalty is nice and all, but it feels like you're chasing your tail when you're spending suffering K.O.s one after the other, and spending 5 minutes(which, I don't care what anyone says, feels a lot damn longer), at a time waiting for it to wear, all under heavy fire.

Much like I won't expect people to cure or raise me in the midst of campaign, I'll remember those that do and appriciate it. As such, I'm one of those crazy fools who will try to save a mage from an NM at the expense of my own death. But while I'm pulling his attention away, you better be trying to get away or at least get RR up, cause I won't hold em for long. And that raise right after he leaves would be a real nice way to say thanks.

Though I will disagree that soloing in campaign is the "extreme" case of soloing. The extreme of soloing is repeatedly climbing to the top of Ulg Range, dodging Taurus, Bombs and even Jormy itself to get to your camp and spend hours there without seeing a single soul. Campaign, whether you're in a party or not, is a group effort. Even if you pull your mob to the farthest corner of the zone to solo, you're still not alone in that fight. It's *Us* vs *Them* so helping each other out is helping everyone out.

But I will agree that 5 minutes is FOREVER in the middle of a battle.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

People are dicks in general... but I still think this "every man for himself" attitude has to just GTFO. I agree that no one is entitled to said cures, but for fuck sake it wouldn't kill these WHM's and RDM's to occasionally take a look around at all the dead bodies and toss a few raises (which you get points for! ) or a cure to the tank who might just be going under in a few seconds.

No one is demanding 24/7 attention for their HP, just a little cooperation.

I know my previous post showed a bit of animosity, but I didn't really think it was that serious on Odin and... whatever server you're from, Malacite.

Thus far, I've been on Ragnarok and Seraph, and I've yet to encounter support that is half as stingy as you or 'kitten is making them out to be. Usually, the only reason I'm not getting Haste(uselessly) spammed on me, or the PLD isn't getting steady Cures, is because the healers are either dying or dead. I've never really seen the sort of callous behavior that 'kitten's ranting about, from anyone other than the DDs. They seem to be slow on the uptake when a job they merrily utilize for support any other time takes hate and needs some cover.


EDIT: I really do feel both sides of the argument bear merit. If you're capable, there's nothing wrong with tossing some support to those in need, it only helps the overall cause. However, Not a single person has any right to bitch if said support decides to go off and do their own thing; they weren't there to assist you in the first place(not when assisting an NPC might yield better results), so it's not like they're leaving you hanging.

Much like I won't expect people to cure or raise me in the midst of campaign, I'll remember those that do and appriciate it. As such, I'm one of those crazy fools who will try to save a mage from an NM at the expense of my own death. But while I'm pulling his attention away, you better be trying to get away or at least get RR up, cause I won't hold em for long. And that raise right after he leaves would be a real nice way to say thanks.

You're a rare breed, then.

Though I will disagree that soloing in campaign is the "extreme" case of soloing. The extreme of soloing is repeatedly climbing to the top of Ulg Range, dodging Taurus, Bombs and even Jormy itself to get to your camp and spend hours there without seeing a single soul. Campaign, whether you're in a party or not, is a group effort. Even if you pull your mob to the farthest corner of the zone to solo, you're still not alone in that fight. It's *Us* vs *Them* so helping each other out is helping everyone out.

Yeah, I phrased that poorly. I probably should have labeled it as extremes in exp gain. Endure the pains and high exp of speed killing parties from the late 50's onward, or bear the relative comfort but lone-shark attitude of Campaign/Besieged events, available at about the same time.

The developers don't seem to be looking for a happy medium, maybe because not enough people want that anymore.

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

If I'm solo and I'm halfway across a zone or three zones, yeah, what happens to you isn't my problem. What happens to you when you're soloing out in Attowah Chasm all alone is your problem.

But if I'm near you and can spot the time to do so, I'll probably raise you. Only time I don't have that level of sympathy is when someone steals my camp or tries to.

I dunno, maybe I'm just a nice guy who didn't level mage jobs for the easy invites and endgame security, but because I don't mind supporting and am genuinely interested in the jobs I've levelled to 75*. If I'm passing through somewhere and I see someone struggling solo and I'm not in some kind of hurry.

Its not a sense of entitlement that makes me disgusted with mages in Campaign, but the fact that as a person who primarily plays support and mage jobs, I know you guys have it a lot easier than you'd like to have us believe. Its a privelaged life being a mage these days especially where SCHs and DNCs can ease things up on that "curebot" stuff RDM, SMN and WHM complain about so much. Invite one of those and don't you dare tell me they're a rare commodity, they're totally all over the place these days.

So, quite frankly, those accusing me of a sense of entitlement have it backwards - you have that. I'm just looking for what I consider a common courtesy, particularly when the battlefield is strewn with a couple dozen corpses and you're the only one standing and likely to go down next.

Simply put - Campaign Solo != Solo. We're fightingalong side you and you're getting that EXP because we're killing the mobs too. No RDM or WHM can sit there and tank a dozen Campaign mobs, no matter how good Stoneskin/Phalanx is. Your survival and EXP gain is just as dependant on those around you as yourself, partied or no.


* - I was genuinely interested in BRD at one point. It just ceased to be fun when people stopped calling my by my name and saw me as a merit item instead of a party/LS member.

First, I noted the number of qualifiers in this post. I will do this as long as that isn't happening, or I don't mind assisting, as long as I am not busy. Quite contradicting.

Secondly, if you are by yourself, then campaig = solo. As was stated, you want help, make a party. Also DD are far more guilty of just doing their own thing than any mage I have seen. And I don't mean guilty in a negative sense.

You only get xp for what you do, not the person standing next to you. Yes, they are helping take down the mob too, but I have seen WHM/NIN who put most other DD to shame.

If you are so fed up with the way mages are, then become one yourself and stop bitching about it. It will solve two problems: 1. you wont have to look for a mage to save you, and 2. you can "show" others how it is "supposed" to be played. However, I have a feeling that you will go the same way as other mages.

[Ziero]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

First, I noted the number of qualifiers in this post. I will do this as long as that isn't happening, or I don't mind assisting, as long as I am not busy. Quite contradicting.

Secondly, if you are by yourself, then campaig = solo. As was stated, you want help, make a party. Also DD are far more guilty of just doing their own thing than any mage I have seen. And I don't mean guilty in a negative sense.

You only get xp for what you do, not the person standing next to you. Yes, they are helping take down the mob too, but I have seen WHM/NIN who put most other DD to shame.

If you are so fed up with the way mages are, then become one yourself and stop bitching about it. It will solve two problems: 1. you wont have to look for a mage to save you, and 2. you can "show" others how it is "supposed" to be played. However, I have a feeling that you will go the same way as other mages.

Doesn't BBQ have Brd, Sch and Rdm 75 across two different characters?

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

I hate it when anyone says anything to the effect of "don't like it? Level another job!" They play the job they play, where that play it, because they like the job(hopefully), there's no reason they should really have to switch to anything else.

That said, no one playing a non-support job has any right to bitch when a support job decides to look out for #1 in a setting that doesn't require groups.

[Jonastb]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Doesn't BBQ have Brd, Sch and Rdm 75 across two different characters?

Then play those and stop bitching about how everyone else should. And his rdm is not 75.