New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

(I always go /whm whenever possible).

Thank you.

And mages simply don't get paid (for everything they would normally do to assist in the battle) as much as DDs do. So the only answer right now is for mages to become DDs themselves and do that which is better rewarded.

That doesn't mean mages have stopped helping, at least in Fenrir mages still do magey stuff to help others. But the truth is we do it at the cost of getting less notes and xp, while most DDs just swing away without worrying about helping anyone else.

Hence the [DD jobs'] refusal to sub /whm or any support subjob to help in the battle if you ask me.

Exactly.

That's not true; you lose time. Time which you could be using to earn exp instead.

Same for blowing MP; RDMs like myself have good MP flow, but even that's not indefinite; Cure III > Cure IV > Cure III > Cure IV is a short string of cures, but that's already 268 MP--or ~30% of my entire MP pool gone in under 20 seconds. Keep it up, and I'd have to take a knee, even with Refresh and Convert and Sigil refresh. Which is why I tell melees to take a knee if they get low on HP (unless they have /DNC or something)--it's what I have to do if I ran low on MP if Convert is down.

Mages do not get exp for resting to recharge MP. Since melees already receive better exp than RDMs and WHMs, they can afford to spend more time resting for HP or recovering from KO. I know I go down more often on PLD than RDM during Campaign Battles--and get better exp.

Agreed.

_______________________________

Come up with some valid reasons as to why:

1) Melee/Tanks can't make parties and invite mages if they want backup.
2) Melee/Tanks shouldn't sub the appropriate subs if they choose to go solo.
3) Mages should take time away to cure/raise people (other than pt members) and get less exp than melee/tanks just because you say so.

Still waiting. If all you melee want us to do your bidding, the least you can do is address these issues that have been asked over and over.

*taps her foot* Still waiting...

[Icemage]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

how is a WHM healing/buffing Roleplaying? that is what a WHM does!

Not in Campaign.

If all I did on WHM was Raise and Cure people in Camapign I think I could twiddle my thumbs teaching Tarus to craft in Windurst for XP faster than I could earn it by blowing all my mana and resting.

again I never said any of this in an RP manner, its not RP, its what the jobs basically do, and I even said its not 100% they do other things sometimes, but in normal conditions it is what they do.

No. You are confusing what a WHM's role in a party or alliance has been traditionally assigned and trying to paint that same definition on Campaign, where there is ZERO incentive to help people who are not partied with you, and in fact there is a disincentive to do so (getting KO'd, which loses you time and reduces your end-of-battle reward, as well as costing you another 150MP to cast Reraise again).

When I'm on WHM in Campaign, there is absolutely, positively NO gameplay reason for me to ever cast a spell on anyone except myself or an NPC. None. Whatsoever.


Icemage

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

yes but relevant or not, that is still what I want them to do, even in campaign

Fixed. You've still provided no concrete reason why a mage should do this.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Fixed. You've still provided no concrete reason why a mage should do this.

oh I dont no lets see.....

WHM has...
Cure
Cure II
Cure III
Cure IV
Cure V
Raise

DRG has...
Auto Attack
jump
high jump
Super Jump
Angon

ok lets let the WHM Melee and the DRG cure, becuase doing it any other way would be RPing.....

Yes Feba I see the light, you are soooo correct......

*hands Feba a copy of FFXI*
why dont you try playing again, you seem to be forgetting things.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

DRG has...

Healing breath.

WHM has...

Hexa strike.


Things can function outside the roles they were designed to do. In fact, DRG is very capable with soloing BECAUSE of healing breath, and the same goes for WHM and Hexa strike. And you've shown no reason why that DRG should be helping you damage the mob instead of heal anymore than you've shown why the WHM should help heal you instead of damage the mob; considering the fact that they made no agreement with you to help them.

becuase doing it any other way would be RPing...

RPing isn't bad. Expecting people to act a certain way because of it is.

Galkas are horrible with magic-- should Galka mage players play poorly because that's how it should be? Galka has the lowest MP, so obviously the game stats don't think Galkas should play mages, right?

Now, obviously most jobs conform to their RP storyline, because SE has tilted their stats and abilities towards that. That doesn't mean that they should be required to reflect that at all times, including when they aren't in parties, simply because of RP reasons.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

*rubs forhead* -.- yeah DRG has healing breath, only when subbing a few mage jobs

in a normal DD environment you wont be subbing a mage job

and you keep saying "Things can function outside the roles they were designed to do"

like I am trying to prove this wrong.... I never have, I even said in my post that what I said was not always 100%, because there are exceptions like Campaign and Besieged. Heck I even said I go to these two events as DRG/SCH -.-

and Hexa Strike is a WS, and most WHM don't have their club skill on par anyway.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

OK, so to sum up our mages' viewpoint:

• Even though the system forms a pseudo-alliance by taggings us all with sword icons, Campaign is "solo" content.
• Campaign is about getting as much EXP for yourself, not playing cooperatively.
• Want them to heal you? Form a PT. Oh wait, they don't want to do that, because then they would have to heal you and that would gimp thier EXP.
• Even the occasional cure is too MP exaustive for RDM, the god of MP endurance.

Now, again.

We, the melees, already are mostly subbing /WHM and /DNC for these litttle outings. Its the only way for us to survive this content because mages clearly cannot be trusted to pitch in cures and help out. You can argue melees don't do this, but this doesn't account for all the melees I see dancing or the the melees I see casting raise

And yet, even after all that, some mages don't deign is fit for an occasional cure.

Galkas are horrible with magic-- should Galka mage players play poorly because that's how it should be? Galka has the lowest MP, so obviously the game stats don't think Galkas should play mages, right?

Brady Guide much?

[Saren]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

and Hexa Strike is a WS, and most WHM don't have their club skill on par anyway.

I don't think I know a 75 whm that doesn't have hexastrike and I know quite a few. It’s the best way we have of doing damage and it opens a lot of things up to whm for solo/duoing that just aren’t possible otherwise so people who actually use their whm regularly tend to make sure they have it.


Lets try this again seeing as how that’s not at all what most of the mages have been saying. To sum up our mages' viewpoint:

* Even though the system forms a pseudo-alliance by taggings us all with sword icons, Campaign does not significantly reward mages for playing back line roles and primarily supporting other players.
* Campaign is about getting decent exp for yourself, not ensuring maximum exp for other just because in a normal party situation you would be expected to be a healer
* Want them to heal you? The occasional cure or raise is fine, we don’t mind doing that but don’t expect sympathy or for us to feel guilty if you turn up to Campaign unprepared to take care of most of your own healing and die.
*Campaign does not give us mp or mp regain bonuses of any kind and you have to understand that campaign mp is limited and at the moment there is no incentive for mages to blow all their mp, rest it back then blow it all again etc.

Also, Feba was being sarcasic.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

in a normal DD environment you wont be subbing a mage job

And in a normal DD environment, a mage won't be healing either.

Again, 'normal' is dependent on the situation, in any game.

like I am trying to prove this wrong..

Wrong. It has nothing with you trying to prove it wrong, and everything with you trying to ignore it.

and Hexa Strike is a WS,

Your point? It is a key ability for a WHM that decides to use a club.

most WHM don't have their club skill on par anyway.

Most DRG don't have mage subjobs either, that doesn't mean it's not a valid strategy. Hell, with that logic, relic weapons are bad because most people don't have them.

Even though the system forms a pseudo-alliance by taggings us all with sword icons, Campaign is "solo" content.

The same could be said for anything in FFXI. "Even though the system forms a pseudo-alliance by labeling us by the nations we're in (AND EVEN GIVING US BONUSES FOR FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE OF THAT NATION ONLY), EXP can be 'solo' content". Nobody has said Campaign IS solo content, just that that's how they choose to play it. Just like most missions, quests, EXP, and so on, you can do things by yourself in a group. It's generally easier to do things in groups, but if someone wants to do it solo you have no right to tell them they should be helping you.

Campaign is about getting as much EXP for yourself, not playing cooperatively.

Campaign is about fighting off beastmen attacks. The gameplay, though, is primarily used as a means of gaining EXP. If SE wants to make it about more than gaining EXP, they have had plenty of time and ability to do that.

Want them to heal you? Form a PT.

Yep. If they aren't in your party, you have no right to tell them what to do. If they won't join your party, the same applies.

If you're on Foobar's BST, and you wanted to just solo and gain beastmen seals in peace; and then someone came up and demanded you share your EXP and seals, would you do it?

Even the occasional cure is too MP exaustive for RDM, the god of MP endurance.

Have you been paying attention? At all? Again, MP use isn't the only downside to curing people.

We, the melees, already are mostly subbing /WHM and /DNC for these litttle outings.

Good for you. Keep it up.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

love how you only quote part of what I say and make a comment.....
"and Hexa Strike is a WS,"
I said "and Hexa Strike is a WS, and most WHM don't have their club skill on par anyway."
that was my point... not what you "quoted"

and I am not ignoring anything, I think I know more about the game then you do anyway, at this point.
and yes there is a "normal" in the game, EXP environment is what would be normal.
"normal is dependent on the situation, in any game." is a very stupid argument

[Vyuru]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

* Want them to heal you? The occasional cure or raise is fine, we don’t mind doing that but don’t expect sympathy or for us to feel guilty if you turn up to Campaign unprepared to take care of most of your own healing and die.

The bolded part is all I am asking for. I don't expect any mage to sit on the back lines and do nothing but cure, but the occasional cure when the person tanking the mob runs into trouble (like having spells interrupted or something) I do think mages should do.

*Campaign does not give us mp or mp regain bonuses of any kind and you have to understand that campaign mp is limited and at the moment there is no incentive for mages to blow all their mp, rest it back then blow it all again etc.

I can understand not wanting to rest or toss out a bunch of raises during a fight. However normally there is a good 5 minute wait between waves, isn't that enough time to toss out a raise or two and regain your mp while resting?

Also, show me either a Whm who doesn't have a good club skill or a Drg without a mage subjob available and I'll show you my Summon Guivre ability.

[Saren]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

The bolded part is all I am asking for. I don't expect any mage to sit on the back lines and do nothing but cure, but the occasional cure when the person tanking the mob runs into trouble (like having spells interrupted or something) I do think mages should do.

I think most mages in campaign do this, I know I do

I can understand not wanting to rest or toss out a bunch of raises during a fight. However normally there is a good 5 minute wait between waves, isn't that enough time to toss out a raise or two and regain your mp while resting?

Yes it is and I do run around giving cures, raises, protect and shell on the people I noticed tanking in the first couple of minutes of that time. To be fair I tend to see a good number rdms, other whms and bards doing the same sorts of things in the time between waves. There are some that don't of course but those people either need to pee, want a drink/sandwich, are weakened or suck.

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

and I am not ignoring anything,

Except for everything past the third comment, apparently.

and yes there is a "normal" in the game, EXP environment is what would be normal.
"normal is dependent on the situation, in any game." is a very stupid argument

Alright. Try "normal" EXP tactics in almost any BCNM and see how far you get. Try "normal" EXP tactics in Dynamis, and see how far you get. Try "normal" EXP tactics in Assault, and see how many you win.

EXP is a common situation. Not a normal one.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

....... god I want to just punch you Feba I swear

your the one ignoring things, and besides all that you mentioned are not normal, why in hell would I treat BCNM like a normal EXP fight?

I swear a requirement for posting on these forums in the FFXI sections should require validation that you PLAY -.-

[Feba]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Campaign isn't "normal" either. Like I've been saying, nothing is "normal". You can have normal for A SPECIFIC SITUATION-- for example, you can have a normal EXP party, or a normal dynamis group. But you can't say EXP is normal, and then try to apply that 'normal' to other things, like BCNM.

The far better idea for being able to post on these forums would be to be over 13 years old, given that's SE's requirement, but that's probably not going to happen either.

EDIT: Oh, just for fun, explain what I'm ignoring; and how you completely missed the fact that I addressed your entire statement concerning Hexa strike, but you weren't ignoring things.