New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Apparently it's a horrible thing if a mage

lol?

Are you really missing the point or just trying to be an ass?

The horrible thing is that you keep crying about getting asked to Raise, being a mage.
I don't see any Paladin's here crying about being asked to tank.

You think it would be better if Paladin's would try harder to tank? I'm not expecting them to.
But you DON'T think it would be better if mages would try harder to cure once in a while? Woosh.

All that was said was that it would be better for mage's to occasionally toss a cure around, and bam!
Victims, sacrifices, unfair, cure "slaves."

Where's the proof I asked for?

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

They do. They walk up to mobs and start smacking them. No one provokes, or does anything else with the intent of holding hate, hate just bounces around. That's not tanking.

That's not what I meant. I meant if DD's suddenly stop DD'ing, and doing other weird crap (i.e. everyone just subs BRD and buffs themselves for points and at no point damage the mobs or keep them off the mages) I guarantee you'd see a lot of pissed off people.

[Murphie]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Have you missed the part where the mages have been saying they don't need the mobs kept off of them, Malacite? Anyone can tank in Campaign. So the mages don't need your assistance.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

All that was said was that it would be better for mage's to occasionally toss a cure around, and bam!
Victims, sacrifices, unfair, cure "slaves."

I still can't figure out if you're being dense on purpose or not.

Can you read? Do you? The whole damn discusstion started because people expect mages to drop everything, including getting as much EXP as they can, in campaign to heal a melee player who is all poor me over having to go /whm or /dnc and be more self sufficient instead of being able to put up higher damage with another sub.

Got it? Probably not.

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT SOME DD JOBS WHINING THAT MAGES ARN'T HEALING THEM THEY WAY THEY WOULD IN AN EXP PARTY

It can not be made any clearer.

You think you're not saying that? Thats funny. This is the position you are arguing against. Now you're trying to do it in a very passive-aggressive way. You say one thing, then follow it up with saying thats not how its supposed to be, it was meant to be another way. And then you were just a dick about it.

"Help those in need" OBVIOUSLY refers to the use of White Magic.

To put it in a more clear way, something you might actually understand. Square-Enix decides whatever the heck your role in this game is. If they decide White Mage's are tanks, than that's what they're supposed to be doing.

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What's there even discuss about? Do you really think it wouldn't be more the way it's supposed to be going if White Mages cure others?

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White Mages are supposed to heal others.

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No one forced anyone to be a White Mage. If you want to be a White Mage, then do freaking White Magic!

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The Manual nor any other White Mage description says: "You have to help others. In party's." It's like you don't even know what a White Mage is.

Saying White Mage's aren't supposed to heal those in need, is like saying 1+1=9. They are supposed to.

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I just stated my point in what they, and Red Mage's, and Scholar's are supposed to be doing.
And I have every White Mage description provided by SquareEnix themselves or story line involving White Mage's to support my arguments.

you going to get banned if you don't Cure?? No! But you ARE supposed to heal others cause that's what medics (aka White Mage's) do, so it isn't stupid to say that it would be good for a White Mage to actually not be a leecher and use only a FEW helpfull spells.

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the mage still isn't obliged, even though he should cure out. It's common morals and gameplay roles.

In the job description. In the storyline. In almost any other game. White Mage's are healers.

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Obviously, no White Mage involved in this thread knows anything about how to play their job. What a major failure.

Have fun going around doing jack-all, obvious difference between noobs and the better players right there. It's ok to be a noob doing whatever you want. I just didn't think you guys actually wanted to be noobs.

Learn the game.

"Oh yes, I suppose you could melee, you could not heal everyone, but you'd be a disgusting little noob who doesn't know how to play the game how I say you're supposed to, it's the right and moral thing to do."

Healing others who are not in your party, those you have no affiliation with takes away from your EXP in campaign for no reward. I make a more EXP doing damage then being a backline mage. According to you I am 'supposed' to do this since I play a job that can. Well, I'm sorry, I am there to get exp, I am playing solo. Beyond a few cures, it is no longer in my best interests to cure people.

Campaign rewards meleeing. That's about all it rewards. Taking the time out to cure is choosing to penalize yourself. To be expected to do so is what the bother is about. Campaign is not a party environment and it's not dynamis. Working together by making lines in the sand saying a job is supposed to do this and nothing else is not the mechanic of it.

[Empedocles]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Just a question for the mages, if they actually removed the cap for healing so it was a bottomless well of exp during the battles, would you make healing others a priority?

(Not an attack. I'm genuinely interested.)

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Just a question for the mages, if they actually removed the cap for healing so it was a bottomless well of exp during the battles, would you make healing others a priority?

(Not an attack. I'm genuinely interested.)

The problem isn't that much about the cap and more about the down time once you run out of mp.

(Although the cap does force mages -namely WHMs- to compensate doing other things they normally wouldn't in that enviorenment, like meleeing.)

It would require both raising the healing cap and giving mages something to help them with the MP downtime. Something like Conserve MP +50 while in campaign or basic free temp items, like a Wizard Drink/Giant's Drink (choose only one) and a Hi-Elixir (the effect would wear off along with the allied tag).

This in adition to the items you can buy regularly with notes.

Healing (/heal) hp/mp notes would help too.


Edit > Buffing npcs and other players (not self nor barspell casting to avoid /brd and /rdm leeches) and specially debuffing need a little boost too.

[BurningPanther]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Just a question for the mages, if they actually removed the cap for healing so it was a bottomless well of exp during the battles, would you make healing others a priority?

(Not an attack. I'm genuinely interested.)

If Curing was an endless well of exp, I'd be a WHM-subbin', SMN-subbin', SCH-subbin', Chain-Curing sumbitch. I'd be a butt-slut for exp in Campaign like Sevv is for burn parties.

Or then again, maybe I wouldn't. But removing the exp cap on Curing sure as hell would test the limits of my standards.

[Raydeus]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Now that I think about it, wouldn't have been easier to give players more incentives for supporting activities rather than adding more npcs to lag us.

I mean you don't necesarily have to be a mage to support people, if /whm melee used their mp to support others for extra notes that would work too, even if there was a lack of mages in the area.

This of course after making healing more profitable so it was actually worth it for a melee to stop hitting things to rest mp and other weird things like that.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT SOME DD JOBS WHINING THAT MAGES ARN'T HEALING THEM THEY WAY THEY WOULD IN AN EXP PARTY

I think we're coming away with a different impression of this thread. I'm sitting here reading that some DD jobs, who come prepared for Campaign, are complaining that mages will not cure them when/if things go horribly wrong for some reason, and that raises may be hard to come by.

I don't think that mages should sit on the backlines and do nothing but heal. However the opposite where the mages sit on the frontlines and do nothing but melee and Haste themselves is just as wrong. I have seen it where a Quadav spams back to back Stun attacks and spells, or get in a lucky Ore Toss+spell, dropping the melees around him and then and only then does the mage who was meleeing the Quadav toss out a Paralyze, Blind, and Silence. And that's Quadavs, it's even easier for an Orc to tear people up if they use that Orcish Counterstance move. Yagudo are just annoying, and not that serious for the most part.

You want to tell me, that with Sigil Refresh, Vcloak, MP recovery abilities and all that, that a lvl 75 mage cannot be bothered to toss out some enfeebles? They can't take 5 seconds to toss out a cure for the tank that needs it?

And yes, I'll admit that there are some melees that are stupid in Campaign. We're talking the ones who are Mnk/war or Sam/war or something like that, with no means of supporting themselves. From what I have seen while doing Campaign, there aren't that many of them outside of Campaign parties though. Maybe something like 1/30 people in a Campaign fight are a job with no means of supporting themselves. However I'd say that maybe 1/3 mages do not help the melees at all, not even tossing out an enfeeble.

I see people tanking, I see melees coming prepared for Campaign, I am not seeing as many mages contributing beyond melee damage, and Bio spammage from Blm. Furthermore, it is really easy to tell who is taking and keeping hate, and when that person is in trouble and could use a little help. Keep in mind, I have filters setup so that I don't even see the damage that other people take. Granted, when the Gnoles + some Orcish host + 3x groups of NPCs converge on a zone, it does get confusing. But many times that is not the norm, and there are alot of other Campaign zones beyond the ones controlled by Sand'Oria.

Given the above, can you not see why some of us would be more than a little irritated that there are mages not helping the tanks when they need it?

It'd be great if they casted enfeeblements, but most mages rarely do that. Heck, I can go as Drg/Rdm, be with 4-5 lvl 75 Rdms, and I will be the only one who is casting Dispel on mobs/NMs who use some kind of buff that would be good to get rid of.

P.P.S. Some of this could be solved if Campaign parties automatically shared their contribution points for all actions taken while in the party. Then if you want a backline mage you can invite them and give them a share of the exp, and if you aren't willing to do that, you can go to hell -- or to your home point.

I really like that idea, that should go in the Ask SE Questions thread.

[Kailea]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

give healers something to help with downtime?
its called /SCH

Besides this is friken WAR!..... (and no, not talking WAR as in Warrior -.-) Come Prepared

I don't head to the front line of battle with out the following

X potion x2 (only use if I cant heal by other means)
Hi ether x2 (only use if I cant regain mp by ability)
Antidote x12
Eyedrop x12
Reraise scroll (I pop it if I am in red and about to die)
warp scroll (if I plan on stopping for the day)
angon (if going DRG)
Shihe (if going DNC)

I do this both for DRG and DNC when I go

and I go as DRG/SCH or DNC/NIN

I get 1k+ very battle, unless its one of those odd shorties

[Malacite]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Generally I can manage most mobs (well, except orcs spamming that god damned Counterstance) regardless of my sub (I find I get more exp MNK/WAR than on MNK/DNC) but when some dipshit mage comes along and feeds the mob TP while doing crap dmg and not tossing out any spells I start to get pissed.

Never mind all the god damned MPKing that goes on. I'll be handling a mob just fine on my own when someone runs around with a whole train of mobs, and either dies or for whatever reason a few break off and start wailing on me. Real nice...


They gotta nerf those Orc counters too... their normal hits can do say 29 dmg to me as WAR/DNC with defender up while a counter will still do 219 (wtf?), never mind Bakgodek countering for 800+ dmg. The frequency is mind boggling too. Someone care to explain to me the exact mathematical probability of hitting 8 counters in a row? It's happened to me far too often for my liking. Curing Waltz II and Drain Samba II can only do so much HP at a time.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Ah yes, the joys of people kiting that orcish Warmachine, and the Softstep NM.

[Icemage]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

Frankly, I detest playing WHM in Campaign, period. I do it only when I want some more buffer on the job, and it's certainly not something I enjoy doing because frankly WHM sucks rubber hose at it unless you happen to own a K Club.

On RDM, it's a different story - I'm more than happy to Campaign on RDM, though for my time, I'd rather merit unless I'm working on a rankup.

As for the endless debate about whether mages should/shouldn't be tossing out cures on people, consider:

- You want me to heal you? What's in it for me besides a horribly messy death? I can heal an NPC all day and as long as that NPC stays alive, I'll never pull hate. Sure, if it looks like you can hold out and win your current fight with a little helping hand, I'm happy to oblige, but if you're beating on a NM and your HPs are dropping faster than a lead ball in vacuum, the only thing me tossing a Cure V your way is going to earn me is a spot on the enemy's hit list.

- All these melees who come crying about how neglected they are. Consider that you can earn way, way more XP than a WHM in Campaign, and last time I checked WHMs weren't in much demand for meripos. Expecting a WHM to drop what they're doing to come save your bacon when have a faster XP earning curve seems like a lose-lose to me. Frankly, if it looks like you're going to die with or without my help, I'll let you die and Raise you afterwards. Downtime sucks, yes. I'd rather not join you on the list of casualties if I can avoid it, thanks all the same.

Healing other players is a liability in Campaign. You expose yourself to heavy risk, and get nothing back that you couldn't get from casting on an NPC.

Sure, I go out of my way to keep people alive sometimes, but never, EVER on WHM in Campaign. More often than not, breaking this rule has ended up in me getting unnecessarily KO'd, and negating 10+ minutes of "TP-feeding".

P.S. to Malacite: You want to complain about mages meleeing, take your issues to Square-Enix. Considering how much more XP one earns for attacking (costing nothing) versus casting spells of any type (costing MP, which is limited, even if one is using /SCH), you're going to have to present a better argument than "I suck too much to survive when a monster hits me a little harder with TP attacks".


Icemage

[Saren]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

What Icemage said; campaign on whm is not fun and it's not a lot of reward for your time compared to what other people seem to be getting unless you opt out and spam buff spells. I started out in campaign playing whm as a healer, curing, raising etc but you get very little exp for it. I always get significantly less exp in campaign than DD friends even now I've switched over to a more soloing style.

Just a question for the mages, if they actually removed the cap for healing so it was a bottomless well of exp during the battles, would you make healing others a priority?

Yes I would but the only thing that worries me about this is if you still got bonuses for curing npcs (which you would have to) you just made sch a campaign monster. Accession + cures on NPCs in campaign is ridiculous especially seeing as how they are adding yet more npcs.

give healers something to help with downtime?
its called /SCH

You have to remember that campaign is not a party situation against normal mobs. A lot more damage is happening and I'm not in a party so I'm having to rely on cures, even in a party the damage happens fast enough that you probably aren't going to be using much but cures anyway. I can easily....easily run through 1000mp in a minute so much as I love /sch 260mp every 6-7 minutes really doesn't cut it and sustaining that kind of mp usage with items just isn't practical.

This is the problem with helping people in campaign on whm, I spend 1 or 2 minutes chain casting and then 5-10 minutes trying to find a safe place to rest, getting my mp back, and hoping that the mob I'm now on the hate list for dies before it runs out of other people to hit. Of course while I'm resting the DD I helped will be merrily on their way getting more exp than me and will probably run to me for more help when they get low on health again. I think a lot of DDs in campaign are still expecting the mages to behave the way they do in besieged forgetting that in most besieged the free items you get give you something close to unlimited mp as a mage.

[Kittyneko]

Re: New Additions and Changes to Campaign (05/22/2008)

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT SOME DD JOBS WHINING THAT MAGES ARN'T HEALING THEM THEY WAY THEY WOULD IN AN EXP PARTY

It can not be made any clearer.

You think you're not saying that? Thats funny. This is the position you are arguing against. Now you're trying to do it in a very passive-aggressive way. You say one thing, then follow it up with saying thats not how its supposed to be, it was meant to be another way. And then you were just a dick about it.

"Oh yes, I suppose you could melee, you could not heal everyone, but you'd be a disgusting little noob who doesn't know how to play the game how I say you're supposed to, it's the right and moral thing to do."

Are you blind?
I don't care what the crybaby White Mage's say when you even REMOTELY associate them to any healing magic. It's freaking hiliarious!!

DO NOT LEVEL WHITE MAGE IF YOU DON'T LIKE TO HEAL.

I said everything I wanted to say about that statement, you took everything I said out of context. But then again, I expected neither of you to actually bother and read everything, all you read is "White Mage" and "Cure" in the same post and the tears start rolling.

Why are there no crybaby Paladin's here?
Cause they aren't crybaby's. All you White Mage's are making far more a deal about whether you're meant to heal or not.


In every multiplayer event in this game, jobs are generally meant to do their own JOB's.
That IS the whole point about playing a job at all.
You guys CHOSE to level White Mage, which is a job all about healing others during any multiplayer event. It's a FACT supported by Square-Enix.
The statement that the job White Mage is only remotely associated to healing others in a party is the most dumbest thing I heard, ever.

It doesn't mean you have to go around helping others, it means that IT IS NOT WEIRD TO BE EXPECTED TO HELP OUT ONCE IN A WHILE.
Who else to expect it from?? Warriors?

And you can complain about how hate bounces between melee's, and that's not called tanking. YOU'RE not the one getting hate, but I guess that doesn't matter??


It is not weird to be the ones expected to help out to heal sometimes, it does not mean you have to be a fulltime healer, it does not mean you have to cure at all.

Wait, let me rephrase that:

It is not weird to be the ones expected to be WILLING to help out to heal sometimes, it does not mean you have to be a fulltime healer, it does not mean you have to cure at all.

However someone else decides to read that statement, I don't care a rat's ass about.

Whatever gets you more exp or what not, I don't care a rat's ass about either. Go write a complain mail to PlayOnline.

Sidenote:
This thread is about the Changes to Campaign, not to what someone once said and all White Mage's start crying about. I care about my point, not what someone else said and you still feel your eyes burning about.


PS.: You've all fallen for Feba's drama starting tricks with his reply's, congratulations.