Development Team Q&A - May 2008

[BurningPanther]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I heard that 100k HP and Benediction access were a pain in the nuts too.

'kitten isn't completely off the mark. It doesn't strike you as remotely--unbalanced---that, instead of grinding for currency to buy a relic, you can just... BUY the currency? Someone tell me if I crazy, but that seems broken in itself.

A series of awesome and awesomely hard quests could easily replace coin grinding for relic accrual. In my head, it plays out like Genkai on crack.

Earn your relic instead of buy it... so crazy, it just might work!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Are most relic weapon owners gil buyers? Seems a strange assumption to me, especially since the price hike on Gil prices.

Not to sound like I'm supporting Taj here, but he didn't go after those eight BG users without a reason. He's a twisted guy, but he tends to have a reason behind his actions, even though his methods cannot be condoned and he's now getting the shit taken to him as well. All eight people he went after bought gil for thier relics. That's a sizeable number considering how few hold them and quite shameful. Again, he was still wrong for what he did, but that doesn't exactly make those people innocents, either.

Yes, there are people incredibly successful with crafting who can obtain relic by those means, however, its virtually impossible to raise a profitable craft these days if you didn't hit max level very early in the game's life or weren't incredibly lucky with BCNMs.

There are a lot of unwieldly and unfriendly elements to the game. I personally don't have a problem with grinding EXP or merits, but there are aspects of endgame that feel more like menial tasks than they do epic. Sky is a good example, THAT is a grind if there ever was one. While Sea is a bit random about trigger drops, at least you don't have to worry about RMT on spawn triggers there. Limbus and Assault are progressive for the most part, though Assault can be its own pain in the ass on some levels - mostly in just finding a compatible group to do them with.

Dynamis and Einherjar I take direct issue with. The way they progress and are entered is decrepit. I'm OK with how the battlefields themselves are, I just don't like that they're not instanced and force awkward scheduling/rules.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

He's saying he doesn't think the whole damn thing should be B U Y A B L E.

Maybe grinding some other way. Grinding to some sort of points system with an NPC. Like AN or CP. Something which you then turn into your next stage relic.

Any dipshit with a credit card can buy gil and turn it into a relic with an even halfway decent Dynamis LS.

Relics would STILL be rare if people had to grind away 12million points with some NPC to prove you're worthy of obtaining it. People are just sick of the fact that the currency is buyable, which makes the relic 95% buyable, which makes it (IMO) less valuable as an acheivement.

I'm not saying every relic holder buys gil, in fact probably less than half of them do. But being able to BUY your relic (in a manner of speaking) makes it less of a challenge than perhaps working in another way - not necessarily financially - does.

Guarantee if currency wasn't needed but some sort of NPC points were, it would still restrict the number of relics - BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A MUCH BIGGER TIMESINK. Grinding your way through a craft takes what, a few months? And then being able to make money off it takes very little effort, really. And then you can use that same very little effort to purchase the coins needed for your relic.

Do you even need to use your Stage 4 weapon in Dynamis to break any sort of latent, even though at that point it's the only place you can use the WS at stage 4? Shouldn't you? Hell yes! You should have to prove yourself worthy of using the damn thing. Buying 5000 Byne bills is hardly epic in nature. It hardly proves you are worthy of obtaining the most epic weapon you can possibly weild in the game.

I don't think it should be like CoP. I think it should still be a long, time consuming grind. But I don't think that GIL should be the deciding factor in who gets a relic. People who really really really want them will be glad to spend days, weeks, months accumulating points (in some way, not sure how exactly) without having to spend nearly as much gil as is now the current system.

Or even better, let's make it a mixture. Sure, some stuff you'll have to buy. Some stuff you'll have to battle for. Some stuff you'll have to quest. Don't make it easy. Getting a relic now is EASY if you have the gil. Even those who don't have the gil can still get it with relative ease. How? RMT. Getting a relic should not be EASY. It should be fucking hard as balls and possibly the most annoying thing you will do ... but guess what? It will prove that the people who get them are absolutely dedicated to the game and to the process of getting their relic. THOSE are the people that deserve them, not just the people who can throw their gil around like it's water.

[Malacite]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

He's saying he doesn't think the whole damn thing should be B U Y A B L E.

QFTMFT!


I'm not completely against the coins so long as they are made EX. However, grinding dynamis over and over blows. I liked the suggestion of implementing more G-5 styled fights.

Say for example, for the Annhilator at the end of the quest you have to challenge and defeat Elvira 1 on 1; That's no easy task. And upon failure, there should be a waiting period of at least 24 hours before reattempting.


Also, it really shouldn't take much more than 4 months, 6 at the absolute most (taking into account waiting periods and failures) because no matter how rewarding, blowing an entire year on one item is just plain stupid. It doesn't prove anything other than you not having anything better to spend your time on.


And I agree whole heartedly with that last part Aky. I for one, and completely sick of money being a barrier/solution to a lot of things in the game. I'm also fed up with the random bullshit luck factor where it doesn't matter how much time and effort you put in so much as getting lucky. (This applies to more than just relic obviously)

I for one, would like to see some major policy changes on SE's part that rewards dedicated players for their efforts as opposed to leaving it up to either luck or gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

In the midst of my ranting, I forgot to include HNMs. I didn't like doing them when it was just competing against two to four other linkshells, you couldn't pay me to go camp one now. With like ten linkshells out there.

Even Bercus and a lot of people on BG agree the way HNMs are is no longer functional. While SE's concept that adding new HNMs with better drops has merit, its not really the best solution because, in time, thanks to the ease of EXP gain in ToA camps, those HNMs will be heavily camped as well.

Having HNMs force popped from some kind of repeatable quest line (perhaps following a similar structure to getting key item drops from ENMs a la uncapped Ouryu v2, possibly with a few extra conditions) and making the HNM force pop would eliminate a lot of the overcrowdedness and drama of camping HNMs. I know some retards like the drama and some strange people find some odd rush from competing with a dozen other linkshell, but most people don't.

Zilart content is just outdated now and people need to face it. Salvage is appealing because if you can get the assault organization, you can do it everyday and without having to schedule around another LS for entry. Drop rate sucks, but I can't argue with the challenge or design in general. Nyzul Isle, same thing.

Limbus has the potential to have the same issues Dynamis and Einherjar do, but its so much more relaxed and there isn't any forced linear progress within them that its pretty easy to just take another path if one is already occupied. Its not often some other LS is on the route you need an item for a pop set from. Its so relaxed you could trio some routes with your friends.

Not to mention there's a little something for everyone to gain. Meanwhile HNMs really only cater to certain job classes and some Dynamis Zones leave certain jobs out of the list of AF2 drops. Sky and Sea gear offset each other, everyone that got sky gear doesn't get sea gear and vice versa. Fair enough, though it kinda sucked pre-CoP it was done like that, it was remedied in the long run.

Endgame content just got a lot more progressive once CoP endgame got established. Whatever complaints I have about ToA, the ToA endgame content is pretty slick overall, even if Assault can be a pain at times. Einherjar is really the only flawed part of ToA endgame. I expect WotG endgame content to be every bit as progressive.

[Malacite]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Limbus has the potential to have the same issues Dynamis and Limbus do,

??

[BurningPanther]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Isn't it obvious? What has more potential to have the problems of Limbus... than Limbus?

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Obtaining Relic weapons.

Har har. Really, though, you can't think of a single example; because SE hasn't attempted such a thing before.

...but despite all that, how rare is the ToAU crown?

And once again, SE was not attempting to make that item extremely rare; nor were our suggestions literal (as in, SE needs to do more; but that would be a good start)

Just a really difficult and chance encounter with the ultimate mob in the game.

To be fair, since SE has shown us a video showing how to defeat him, it's probably more a matter of using some trick than it is the epic fight it seems to be. However, it will still likely be very difficult. Either way, again, SE doesn't need to simply repurpose an old quest. These are a few of the most important items in the game, it wouldn't kill them to actually put some work into the quest for them.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Basically it boils down to this: If a very large group activity like Dynamis as it was designed were to become instanced, it may screw over more people than help. The reason being is almost all the groups would end up entering Dynamis at prime times for each time zone, since now they all can, and people with odd hours are left to fend for themselves. By not instancing, it forces the Dynamis LS's to spread out into later and earlier hours, so on the whole more people have a chance to participate.

So it's a "feature" that that a large number of players are being inconvenienced in order to help out a schedule based minority?

Man, no wonder Dynamis has never appealed to me.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Just because currency is purchasable really doesn't dampen the luster of fully upgraded relic weapons for me, but that could be just an indication of how bad I am at making gil. XD

Salvage pieces like Morrigan's Robe are also expensive, are they not? And, you'd have to get parts by winning battles, like those Attestations. Seem to be somewhat similar, just different mix of percentages. (Less gil, have to personally collect three pieces instead of just initial weapon and one Attestation, etc.)

Would all the hostilities toward relic weapons be applicable to Savlage gears as well? How about Ancient Beastcoin gears? Those are purchasable since ABCs can be Bazaar'ed like Dynamis currency, plus the gears are much cheaper, yet are Rare/Ex as well.

* * *

I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the strong (and emotional?) objections to relic weapons being indirectly purchasable, since quite a few endgame items are like that in varying degrees, yet do not seem to draw the same type of negativity that relics seem to. ._.

* * *

IMO, having a variety is good; some good stuff from pop item runs (Crimson legs, please), some from indirectly purchasable sources (Brutal Earring is next on my ABC list), some are from NPC points (complete Yigit set so I can store those), some are directly purchasable (Haubergeon +1? I wish), some quest rewards (Karin Obi!), some from free running NMs (Ochimusha Kote?! How to claim? lol), and some are combinations of different things.

Of all the options available, probably the free running NM (and HNM) method irks me the most. Not looking forward to hours and hours of camping for Ochimusha's Kote and Sarutobi Kyahan, that's for sure.

Otherwise, I don't see much wrong with having a variety of ways to obtain gears. I guess it's terrible in some sense that someone with a high limit credit card can get a relic faster than me, but I'm so bad at gil, just about everyone I know stand a better chance of getting a relic than I do.

It just doesn't bother me as much as knowing I'd probably never have a chance to get something like Hauteclaire since I don't like idea of botting for claims. At least with Ageis, it'd be mine, sooner or later (or much, much later), if I just squirrel away Gil to buy currency.

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

It's because Relic Weapons are supposed to be the ultimate weapons, and very rare ones. The idea that you can purchase other things, fine. But to create a giant challenge by doing little more than saying "you must pay X gil and fight a couple NMs" is downright insulting on SE's part-- it's a complete lack of effort and creativity. There's also so much potential with an item like that, maybe even moreso now that we have access to the past, that SE's quest is a total waste. There are so many possibilities that I could literally talk about it for weeks; if SE can't think of anything, that's very sad. If SE doesn't care, that's even worse.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I can agree with the idea that more creativity could've been used, sure, but Dynamis was S-E's first large group use content, was it not? Can't really ask for perfection for first efforts. Pretty sure at the time when it was designed, obtaining a relic weapon must have looked like a huge challenge in the eyes of the devs--heck, still looks like a huge challenge to me.

At the end of the day, the relics are still just gears. I stay away from story spoilers, but I understand there's a bit of background to them. That may be enough to make it special to me. (It was a total let down when I got my Loquacious Earring after months of saving up ABCs, since it was just "Here you go! Item X!")

Simple gimmicks are fine, if I get interesting stories for my effort. (Maybe I'm just easy to bribe with story lines; I thought CoP was the best expansion of them all.) Otherwise, gears are just gears.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

??

I was tired, I meant to say Limbus could have had the same problems as Dynamis and Einherjar, but it really doesn't at all. I think anyone with some experience with any of the content would have figured I made a typo, but I probably give people too much credit too often.

Would all the hostilities toward relic weapons be applicable to Savlage gears as well? How about Ancient Beastcoin gears? Those are purchasable since ABCs can be Bazaar'ed like Dynamis currency, plus the gears are much cheaper, yet are Rare/Ex as well.

Most Limbus shells I know of spilt coins between the members at the end of a run. Even when you're not working toward AF+1 upgrades, you can work towards accessories or stand to make a profit on coins after a good run. I call that progressive. Not to mention Limbus usually just runs an hour tops and you can move on to other activities. Also, everyone pays to get in, what right does a leader have to hording away the coins for themselves when people could just go trio with thier friends to start with? Most Limbus shells only apply the point system to Ultima/Omega drops, which make sense because those mobs are spawned by the pop items you got elsewhere.

A well-organized LS would actually take at least two limbus routes at one time, increasing the number of coins to be split at the end.

Salvage has a 100 min limit with no time extention and its usually possible to make it to the top floor of a remnants area, the entry fee comes at no gil cost. With no cost of entry and the need to do assault to enter a lot of LSes don't always use a point system for when items drop, some LSes just let the appropriate jobs just free lot. So technically, everyone "pays" to get in here too.

Dynamis on the other hand... well, what Dynamis LS have you been in where currency was free lot? I've never seen it. People who put up for the hourglass get dibs on currency. That's the way players adapted to it and, to an extent, that's understandable.

But what happens when SE adjusts the price of entry, which seems to be something they're planning?

Finally, Einherjar. The leader more or less pays chump change for his LS to enter, barely even 1/5th of what it takes to buy an hourglass. And since the drop rate is as bad or worse than Salvage, they gotta go back to the ol' point system here if they expect anyone to attend.

So...

• Dynamis - One guy pays and this creates a lot of leader politics, point systems are somtimes used or AF drops. This sometimes means currency will fund future Dynamis runs, other times its the sponsor that directly benefits from the runs and that sometimes is at the expense of member's needs when attestations and Northland AF drops come into play.
• Limbus - Leader can't horde coins or drops because everyone pays to get in. They usually just hold a pop set, coins are split and AF+1 upgrades are usually lotted on a "NBG" basis.
• Salvage - Again, people pay to get in, this time with Assault points. Some LSes use point systems, but many also have "NBG" lotting system.
• Einherjar - Fee of entry to leader is so small, LS point systems are used.
• Nyzul Isle - Cost of entry is Assault Tags, the entire group agrees on terms for lotting boss drops. Practically no drama can happen here.

We can try to excuse SE for Dynamis being thier first big set of endgame zones, but we're well past that point. The system is dated, especially considering other battlefields in the game can now be instanced. A lack of instancing doesn't really pose any problems for Limbus. Salvage, Assault and Nyzul Isle are all instanced.

So really, Dynamis and Einherjar are the ugly ducklings here. While many might have come to terms with thier strucure, especially Dynamis after the last four years, it doesn't mean they're not without flaw and that players should continue to accept thier outdated designs.

Dynamis I've seen so many funny rules applied to. Sometimes I laugh when it comes back to bite a so-called leader in the ass. Some LS runs, the cost is split amoungst the members and if you have two alliances entering, to split cost is not that much more than entering Limbus, yet, I've seen these leaders insist they still get all currency in exchange for free lot on AF.

LOL. No. Everything is free lot now, we all paid to get in.

Pick-up Dynamis - which I've seen happen - usually means a Dynamis LS is ailing and looking for manpower. I offered to assist on a pick-up Bastok run the other day since my Taru needed the win, that is, until the leader told me that RDM and BST AF lots were off-limits to people not 72+. My BST and RDM could enter Dynamis, but they're 65. My RNG doesn't get anything out of Dynamis-Bastok, no ToA jobs have AF2s yet so COR is out. I could lot BRD Relic hands, but those are shit and I don't want to gear my BRD and the expense of other players that might actually enjoy the job. The job I could offer and wanted to go on - SCH - gets nothing out of it but the win, which I could just get from any LS down the road. Really, Dynamis-Bastok is a breeze.

I wouldn't mind Monster Jackcoat though, yet I can't lot this? Really, how many people are really going after that one? What LS member is really going to take BST to 75 if it randomly drops to them if the LS doesn't have a BST?. So if this does drop (and its a common one), then I just have to sit there and watch it drop to someone and I'm not allowed to lot? Stupid and wasteful rule, if you ask me, and one that leads to drama, usually.

What a waste. Fuck that noise, this LS was asking for manpower. I could get that win from any Dynamis LS I chose to join that commonly did cites, so free lot or GTFO, kids. I'll be glad to pass on the currency, but this isn't a trial and I'm not putting up an application, you're the ones begging for help. So I didn't go help.

The other terms of bigger, established and non-ailing LSes I mostly understand. And I understand it the way Dynamis is designed that makes people behave they way they do concerning it. I take issue with some of dated designs mostly where relic upgrades and entry are concerned. I'm not a fan of the Northland drop rate, either, which forces LSes to spam them all the more than relic upgrades do.

There are LSes that make constant city runs and I'm looking to join one, but I highly doubt I will ever persue RoZ Relic weapons. The system for that just boils down to the player being rich, buying gil or the sponsor hoarding currency to fund future runs or thier own relic upgrades. That's flawed in several ways, regardless of how much its intended to be rare.

IF I do go for RoZ relic, I'm going for Annihilator. Its the easiest one and SE designed it that way - just like they did RNG AF - because they acknowledged at the time that the job was incredibly costly to start with. I'd never even consider any other RoZ relic because the cost is too excessive.

[Balfree]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Obligatory commentary:

Absolute Virtue: HI.
Random Warrior: ITS A TARP!

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I heard that 100k HP and Benediction access were a pain in the nuts too.

'kitten isn't completely off the mark. It doesn't strike you as remotely--unbalanced---that, instead of grinding for currency to buy a relic, you can just... BUY the currency? Someone tell me if I crazy, but that seems broken in itself.

A series of awesome and awesomely hard quests could easily replace coin grinding for relic accrual. In my head, it plays out like Genkai on crack.

Earn your relic instead of buy it... so crazy, it just might work!

Actually again the 100k Hp and Benediction isn't the hard part, It is extremely annoying but will not wipe you. The meteor's damage is not modified by the people in the area of damage, so can easily kill you over and over, add in the instant cast he has on all spells without chainspell up and your going to understand just why he is unkillable. All the Hp and Benediction does is add time to the kill speed.

Actually it is not just relics, welcome to the real side of FFXI. You can with enough gil buy any drop in this game. This includes ridills, ebodies, salvage gear etc, there is nothing you can't obtain with enough gil. It wasn't how the systems were designed but, it has been brought to Square-Enixs attention more then once, and it was already ruled to be well within the ToS.

I don't know if you do understand this or not, but there is no "series of awesome and awesomely hard quests" can't be exploited and run by a good endgame linkshell to have every member capped on relics.

Alot of people do earn their relics, no matter the system their will always be undeserving members. The quest system just makes it far more wide spread then the current system. Square-Enix already stated they didn't want to make dynamis relics common.

People keep forgetting that we have a second type of Relics coming out which IIRC they said would be more common then Dynamis relics but also a little bit weaker. This is what you all are basically wanting, while we do not know the way to obtain these maybe it will more a quest.

Alot of you who are complaining about the being able to obtain current relics, do not have the gil to make them. So then people say well you can visa your relic! That is so true if anyone wants to spend $15,000 usd or more on buying all the gil needed. They were never meant to be done by everyone period.

In real life as in the game money = power.

Not to sound like I'm supporting Taj here, but he didn't go after those eight BG users without a reason. He's a twisted guy, but he tends to have a reason behind his actions, even though his methods cannot be condoned and he's now getting the shit taken to him as well. All eight people he went after bought gil for thier relics. That's a sizeable number considering how few hold them and quite shameful. Again, he was still wrong for what he did, but that doesn't exactly make those people innocents, either.

Yes he found only 2 relic holders who bought gil, the others did not have relics.

So of the 1869 Full relics and 558 Fourth Stage relics, We know of with proof that 2 people have used gil buying to fund relics. Of course I know that plenty more have done it as well.

Yes, there are people incredibly successful with crafting who can obtain relic by those means, however, its virtually impossible to raise a profitable craft these days if you didn't hit max level very early in the game's life or weren't incredibly lucky with BCNMs.

I beg to disagree seeing, I am easily making a profit while reworking all crafts to 100 again. Bcnm. Farm mats, Sell crafted items (or npc) and you can easily make your way to 100. Again you need to put forth effort.

There are a lot of unwieldly and unfriendly elements to the game. I personally don't have a problem with grinding EXP or merits, but there are aspects of endgame that feel more like menial tasks than they do epic. Sky is a good example, THAT is a grind if there ever was one. While Sea is a bit random about trigger drops, at least you don't have to worry about RMT on spawn triggers there. Limbus and Assault are progressive for the most part, though Assault can be its own pain in the ass on some levels - mostly in just finding a compatible group to do them with.

You just have to bicth about every system don't you? I mean sky is older content and a very simple and easy system to benefit from. All things over time become a grind, it is just how we view the older content. Sea I don't know if you haven't done sea or not but the trigger drops always drop off the nms. Any consitant event requires a dedicated group of people to progress in it nicely tho.

Dynamis and Einherjar I take direct issue with. The way they progress and are entered is decrepit. I'm OK with how the battlefields themselves are, I just don't like that they're not instanced and force awkward scheduling/rules.

Limbus is not instanced either, as well as they also progress in the same manner. The only difference is that in Dynamis you do not need to go back and clear the same areas again in order to go to the final zones again. Sceduling and Rules again are LINKSHELL by LINKSHELL, you can't place the blame on Square-Enix because your linkshell doesn't have rules and time you like.

Do you even need to use your Stage 4 weapon in Dynamis to break any sort of latent, even though at that point it's the only place you can use the WS at stage 4? Shouldn't you? Hell yes! You should have to prove yourself worthy of using the damn thing. Buying 5000 Byne bills is hardly epic in nature. It hardly proves you are worthy of obtaining the most epic weapon you can possibly weild in the game.

I don't think it should be like CoP. I think it should still be a long, time consuming grind. But I don't think that GIL should be the deciding factor in who gets a relic. People who really really really want them will be glad to spend days, weeks, months accumulating points (in some way, not sure how exactly) without having to spend nearly as much gil as is now the current system.

Or even better, let's make it a mixture. Sure, some stuff you'll have to buy. Some stuff you'll have to battle for. Some stuff you'll have to quest. Don't make it easy. Getting a relic now is EASY if you have the gil. Even those who don't have the gil can still get it with relative ease. How? RMT. Getting a relic should not be EASY. It should be fucking hard as balls and possibly the most annoying thing you will do ... but guess what? It will prove that the people who get them are absolutely dedicated to the game and to the process of getting their relic. THOSE are the people that deserve them, not just the people who can throw their gil around like it's water.

Dynamis - Beaucedine - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Check out attestations and how they drop, also becomes a huge amount of luck

Dynamis - Xarcabard - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Check out Animated Weapons.

Oh I don't know this may have been Square-Enix's way of making linkshell's prove that they were deserving. I could also add in that when these were introduced they were harder then hell, like when kirin was first introduced it was a bitch, players and linkshells grow things that were once hard become simple.



I am already bored as hell trying to point out everything you all missed, please dear god learn about the events and do them before you bitch about them, bithcing about relics? Try to make one, bitching about HNMS? camp them, etc etc etc. Then you will atleast know what your talking about.