Development Team Q&A - May 2008

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Yes because people who don't have money to get one of the original relics just want SE's "consolation prize."

Stating that there are now new relics is only your way of saying that you can't possibly accept that the current relic system is flawed as it is. No one's going to want the shitty RDM Nyzul relic over Excalibur for example, and it would be stupid to think otherwise, unless it really is bitchingly awesome, in which case then it fails because SE has said they want the Dynamis relics > Nyzul relics.

Quite sure they'll be easier to obtain. Don't even sit there and tell me to run off and get a Nyzul relic like it even compares. "Woo hoo look at me I have the Nyzul Relic." Guess what, that doesn't even remotely equal the Dynamis Relics so stop pulling that bullshit card.

I've already stated that they're fine being rare. When did I ever state that I wanted more people to have them? I didn't. I'm saying I still want them to be hard to get but that I don't think people should have to fucking buy everything. Jesus tapdancing christ I didn't think it was so fucking hard for you to understand. Buying shit, IMO, takes the achievement out of it. Sure I could buy a fucking D Ring from an HNM shell but it sure wouldn't feel like I earned that shit myself after showing up to a camp and watching other people fucking kill it for me. Buying shit =/= acheivement in my opinion.

I really didn't think I had to dumb it down this much.

I agree with you on the buying shit, me talking about the items you can buy from endgame was basically just pointing out it doesn't stop with relics or anything. Actually the Nyzule relic can be much better then excailber if it has oh I don't know mage stats on it?

Let me point out something else. Rare =/= Unique. Rare items are items that will not be used by the common person.

In real life, a yacht is rare. The common person will not own a yacht.
In FFXI a TON of items are Rare. There are Rare items that everyone has.
The reason is that Adventurers, such as us, are also Rare. We are NOT THE COMMON PEOPLE. There is no INTELLIGENT reason that everyone shouldn't be able to get a relic weapon. And because SE said so is NOT an intelligent reason.

Quest it, put together every element of the game to get it.

Start with getting the weapon in Dynamis
Require 1k WS points
Travel around to different areas to Farm (not buy) different items that are related to that weapon. (ie coeurl whisker for bow)
Fight Multiple NPCs (yes, some that are in Dynamis too)
Have wait times, SE loves JP midnight anyway
Have different requirements that are weapon related that only have to be done for that weapon.

There are a lot of things that you can do that will take both time and experience to get a weapon that doesn't require gil.

Watch the majority of the endgame community walk around with relics.
Watch as the users of this bored start to complain
Watch as people on this board slowly get left out for not having the relics.
Watch as burns have relic only people, and the board wants to nerf relics.
Watch as people wish it was like the older system.

Damn that is almost the same way it is now, tho if they used your idea... I would have to say Depending on wait times, I would have every relic in about a year like most of my linkshell.

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

tho if they used your idea..

Nobody here wants SE to copy what they say word for word and turn that into the relic quest. We want SE to try their damnedest to think of something creative, challenging, unique, and all the other things you should expect from a Final Fantasy game. Then again, given the Zodiac Spear, maybe they just don't care anymore. They just want to get your monies in any way they can.

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Nobody here wants SE to copy what they say word for word and turn that into the relic quest. We want SE to try their damnedest to think of something creative, challenging, unique, and all the other things you should expect from a Final Fantasy game. Then again, given the Zodiac Spear, maybe they just don't care anymore. They just want to get your monies in any way they can.

Wait... Unique and Square? Seriously?

You just don't get the fact that if there isn't some huge money aspect in the relic process, like the current system then they will become everyday weapons. I mean come on we camp a dragon, a behemoth, and a turtle for 3-9 hours each day for usually shitty gear... we have the time.

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

You just don't get the fact that if there isn't some huge money aspect in the relic process, like the current system then they will become everyday weapons

Which is just plain false.

I mean come on I camp a dragon, a behemoth, and a turtle for 3-9 hours each day for usually shitty gear... I have the time.

Fixed. Just because you have a ton of time to sink into a game doesn't mean others do; and it doesn't mean that those others should be punished when it would be a far better system to make it challenging instead of a simple grind anyway.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I don't like this currently logic floating about that Nyzul Relics will somehow be easy-peasy.

First off, ToA and WotG jobs have never had a relic weapon before. Additionally, there has never been a relic crossbow. The majority of the other ToA relics are similar weapons types that came before, though PUP gets its own set of H2H here as well.

Why would SE make relics for these jobs if they were somehow "less" than the RoZ ones? If anything I'd expect the new ones for the older jobs would be different in some way. ToA/WotG these jobs can't get RoZ relics, much less AF2s, so I see no sense in shortchanging them.

I pretty much expect this crossbow to behave in a similar fashion to other relic weapons RNG has, possibly with a boost to bolt effects. Death Penalty would probably have effects similar to Annihilator and perhaps some effect with Quick Draw. BLU's Sword might have an effect on spell learning and spell damage.

At any rate, I don't think SE would go to the trouble just to give the newer jobs lesser relics.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I was under the impression that the old relics were getting a boost to compensate for the newer ones. SE still wants Dynamis relics to be the ultimate weapons, Nyzul are going to be second best.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I was under the impression that the old relics were getting a boost to compensate for the newer ones. SE still wants Dynamis relics to be the ultimate weapons, Nyzul are going to be second best.

I've never seen that said, but that might be the case for jobs that have relic in RoZ. It would be rubbish to make ToA/WotG job relics second-rate, you know, since they don't have Dynamis Relics.

I think players are putting words into SE's mouth based on thier endgame preferences - which usually do not consist of the newer jobs - more than it is SE actually saying such things.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

It would be rubbish to make ToA/WotG job relics second-rate, you know, since they don't have Dynamis Relics.

This I agree with.

What I heard is "through the grapevine" so it may or may not be true.

But if Nyzul relics are going to be somewhat easier to obtain, at least from the way I've understood it, it would only stand to reason that they are not as good as Dynamis relics.

But once again, this is all speculation, really. I'm already in a Nyzul static that has one disc holder at floor 100 and we're working on our second. Hopefully this means I'll be able to actually get one with some sort of relative ease. I hope they don't do some shit with Einherjar though, because that will make me /cry. And /wrists.

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I was under the impression that the old relics were getting a boost to compensate for the newer ones. SE still wants Dynamis relics to be the ultimate weapons, Nyzul are going to be second best.

Tho how the current relics are, alot of these could be better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

The disc-holder bit is really the only part about Nyzul I hate. Everyone who worked to get up those floors should be able to select them in the future. I've had Nyzul Statics that got to a certain floor and it fell apart or the disc-holder quits or they just never get started.

Everyone should be able to record the progress in the event any of these things happen. Sucks to have to start from the bottom again.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

The way I see it with the Relics is as follows:

Dynamis Relics are the ultimate weapon archetypes.

Nyzul Relics will be the ultimate job weapons.

I hope that sounded as clear as it did in my head . . .

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

The way I see it with the Relics is as follows:

Dynamis Relics are the ultimate weapon archetypes.

Nyzul Relics will be the ultimate job weapons.

I hope that sounded as clear as it did in my head . . .

Actually it did... and I am a bit scared I understood something you said =O

[BurningPanther]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Given the fact that the Nyzul relics will be job-specific, I feel we have every reason to expect them to be better than the Dynamis relics, simply by virtue of catering to the job they were made for(though how they plan to top Aegis and Hauteclaire for PLD, and Gjallarhorn for BRD, I can only guess). Here's hoping any extra effects on the Murglies actually stack with En-spells, rather than being unable to coexist. >_>

Say what you will about the Dynamis relic weapons, but when you look at them, the majority come off as kind of generic. The closest thing to "ultimate" for any of them is that they are the highest damaging--their stats(with the obvious exception of Aegis and Gjallarhorn), are kind of underwhelming.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

He's saying he doesn't think the whole damn thing should be B U Y A B L E.

Maybe grinding some other way. Grinding to some sort of points system with an NPC. Like AN or CP. Something which you then turn into your next stage relic.

Any dipshit with a credit card can buy gil and turn it into a relic with an even halfway decent Dynamis LS.

Relics would STILL be rare if people had to grind away 12million points with some NPC to prove you're worthy of obtaining it. People are just sick of the fact that the currency is buyable, which makes the relic 95% buyable, which makes it (IMO) less valuable as an acheivement.

I'm not saying every relic holder buys gil, in fact probably less than half of them do. But being able to BUY your relic (in a manner of speaking) makes it less of a challenge than perhaps working in another way - not necessarily financially - does.

Guarantee if currency wasn't needed but some sort of NPC points were, it would still restrict the number of relics - BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A MUCH BIGGER TIMESINK. Grinding your way through a craft takes what, a few months? And then being able to make money off it takes very little effort, really. And then you can use that same very little effort to purchase the coins needed for your relic.

Do you even need to use your Stage 4 weapon in Dynamis to break any sort of latent, even though at that point it's the only place you can use the WS at stage 4? Shouldn't you? Hell yes! You should have to prove yourself worthy of using the damn thing. Buying 5000 Byne bills is hardly epic in nature. It hardly proves you are worthy of obtaining the most epic weapon you can possibly weild in the game.

I don't think it should be like CoP. I think it should still be a long, time consuming grind. But I don't think that GIL should be the deciding factor in who gets a relic. People who really really really want them will be glad to spend days, weeks, months accumulating points (in some way, not sure how exactly) without having to spend nearly as much gil as is now the current system.

Or even better, let's make it a mixture. Sure, some stuff you'll have to buy. Some stuff you'll have to battle for. Some stuff you'll have to quest. Don't make it easy. Getting a relic now is EASY if you have the gil. Even those who don't have the gil can still get it with relative ease. How? RMT. Getting a relic should not be EASY. It should be fucking hard as balls and possibly the most annoying thing you will do ... but guess what? It will prove that the people who get them are absolutely dedicated to the game and to the process of getting their relic. THOSE are the people that deserve them, not just the people who can throw their gil around like it's water.

I hate to say it but I'm finding the stronger argument for rarity on Ziero and Sevv's side of this. The fact that currency is buyable, or more to the point sellable, is a key factor in the rarity of relics, IMO. You have to consider very damned hard whether pursuing a relic is worth the time and effort you will put into funding it as opposed to other things you could fund at equivalent values of gil.

I'm not going to argue over whether the level of rarity in question is right (it's kind of hard to argue you don't want to make it less rare if it's essentially unobtainable or not worth obtaining for you now and you want that to change, unless you truly believe that someone else less worthy of it is getting it at your expense). But I think that if you were earning points which could ONLY be applied to relic upgrades, the number of relic holders would rise dramatically, even if due to rates of earning it takes a couple years to do so. I think the only way you could have a truly exclusive way of committing to this (NPC points, etc.) and still maintain the current level of disincentive toward pursuing a relic, is if there was an alternate use for these points, for instance being able to trade them for high-priced crafting materials, consumables like ammo, or even direct gil if SE isn't too afraid of bringing back inflation. Unless somewhere along the line you have to decide whether to put these points toward something else that might be more immediately valuable to you, it's only a matter of time before you accumulate enough to complete your relic.

That said, making it more involved than just spending gil wouldn't hurt rarity at all and could make things more interesting. But I don't think that more fights and such would allow you to reduce the gil cost much if at all. It's a fine line because the main thing keeping relics out of most people's hands is that many people look at the costs and see that it's not objectively worth it. For a few people, it's sexy enough to overcome the relative loss. For most it's not. Tamper with that balance much, and it could have a very significant impact on rarity.

The notion of Ex BCNM/KSNM currency drops is interesting though, since those are resource-limited to get into, and you'd have to weigh it against other BCNM/KSNM fights. Such BCNM/KSNM fights as drop Ex currency would have to be fairly unprofitable, relatively speaking. Might be interesting too if they were something like a 1 member fight with a very high seal cost. Not only do you have the aspect of a personal challenge and a need to prep, and an inability to spam the fight, but you have a very real consideration of whether you're willing to give up something that's a well-established gil-maker...

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

You have to consider very damned hard whether pursuing a relic is worth the time and effort you will put into funding it as opposed to other things you could fund at equivalent values of gil.

Which would still be the case, except where the weapon was something that you earned, instead of bought.