The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

[Malacite]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

My suggestions for Dyna wouldn't be terribly unique, just more of what's already been said;

Make it instanced like Assault, Lower the entry fee to 500k, increase drop rates on Relic Armor etc (and at least 1 guaranteed 100 piece from beating the boss). It wouldn't kill them to increase currency drop rates a little either. I don't disagree that this should take a sizable amount of time and effort, but the kind of money involved along with more than 4-6 months of work is insanity.

It's a fucking game, no matter how you slice it. If you want to give us epic weapons then make the challenge epic as well and not just a horrendously expensive, soul-crushing grind.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

The point of RELICS is that not every one would have them.

How hard is that to understand?

They're a very powerful reward for those who DO want to "waste the time" getting them.

They're not "your" ultimate weapons, they're super rare, pain in the ass, highly powerful weapons that very few people will obtain. These aren't like the CoP rings or the ToAU Crown or some such thing, these are supposed to be rare and the only way to do that is to A) Make them drop off an unbeatable monster (AV) or B) make the gil and time requirements so absurd most people quit before they even begin.

You *do* work for relics, more so then any other item in this game. And that's the point. SE does not want anyone and everyone to be able to obtain them and that's why Dynamis drops are still so crappy.

And the Nyzul weapons will not be as strong as the old Relics, I can pretty much gaurentee that. And if they even come close to being on equal terms as them, SE is sure to boost the original relics in some way.

Are you even reading the responses? WE KNOW THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE RARE. We agree with that.

The POINT is that the design behind obtaining relics is fucking stupid.

Getting your ultimate weapon should be challenging, it should not be a grind that consists of several months or years of your life. Yeah, that whole prompt at the beginning of FFXI, talking about not throwing your life away on the game. The design of Relics/HNM kinda contradicts that. This shit was made for people who want to throw thier lives away on a game.

All I'm saying is that there should be a real challenge involved as opposed to a pointless, soulless timesink that is ritually thwarted by the greed the system's design does nothing to circumvent.

People who lead things like Dynamis tend be self-serving. Its not always the case, I know there are LSes that do city runs, I also know LSes that do Northlands and nothing but for relics that never get completed. That, in my humble opinion, is jerking the rest of your LS around that might need things from cities.

Getting my ultimate weapon should not consist of enlisting an army of peons whose needs I never will fufill once I hit a certain point on upgrades.

Face facts: A lot of RoZ endgame content is woefully decrepit. A lot of it could still use fixing. Instead of waiting for 21-24 repops, can't it just be spawned from some items you have to do a huge epic quest to obtain? Doe I really have to go through battle for epeen between other campers and the drama of MPKs?

Can't Relics also entail an quest of epic proportions, including BCNMs, storyline and some of the hardest fights in the game? Why does it have to be a mindless grind of boring proportions? Dynamis... its not hard anymore for the most part.

Not to mention the addition of instancing Dynamis would be wonderful. People wouldn't have to plan around other linkshells just to go in. ToA endgame content sans Einherjar is instanced. This is a good thing, Dynamis/Einherjar NEEDs to follow suit.

The reason I like Assault/Nyzul/Limbus is because that content makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere, that I'm getting things done, even if it takes a long time to do it, at least things are being progressive for my benefit along with the benefit of others.

[Malacite]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

Are you even reading the responses? WE KNOW THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE RARE. We agree with that.

The POINT is that the design behind obtaining relics is fucking stupid.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Please, for the love of god attend the next fan fest, with your exact statement written down (okay, sans the cursing) and present it to these fossils we call the Dev team.

Hell, I'd rather fight AV for my Amanomurakumo than devote years upon years and untold sums of gil to obtain one silly little virtual item. A lot of the relic weapons were owned by very prominent, historic figures in the game too. With WotG out now and the chance to meet most (maybe all?) of these NPCs, how about just a big old fuck you to Dynamis and instead introducing quests involving these NPCs where we either end up challenging them for their weapons, or in some way involving them in a epic BC's where they decide it's best to pass them on?

[Seaofheather]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

Forget all this Relic hard ship and stuff, and focus on the important part. RELIC GEAR FOR TOAU Jobs. Yes this is Huge that now I have something worth not quitting for awhile on blu, but It sucks that some of the best blu gear is either A total pain to get, or level 50-60. And saying Relic weapons are impossible is pushing it. I know a few people with Multi weapons, and enough gil to upgrade more. Also this lottery will be a big howdy for a few lucky winners to get what ever they need.

Yes original should stay just as hard to get, but maybe these ones should be less of a money drain, cause Damn I want that blu sword, even tho it's nothing flashy. Stupid SE knowing how to get my money

[Feba]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

Nobody said relics are impossible. The problem is that, exactly as you say, it's a matter of Gil, and not the challenge of getting such a weapon.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

Forget all this Relic hard ship and stuff, and focus on the important part. RELIC GEAR FOR TOAU Jobs. Yes this is Huge that now I have something worth not quitting for awhile on blu, but It sucks that some of the best blu gear is either A total pain to get, or level 50-60. And saying Relic weapons are impossible is pushing it. I know a few people with Multi weapons, and enough gil to upgrade more. Also this lottery will be a big howdy for a few lucky winners to get what ever they need.

Yes original should stay just as hard to get, but maybe these ones should be less of a money drain, cause Damn I want that blu sword, even tho it's nothing flashy. Stupid SE knowing how to get my money

Considering AF for ToA and WotG beats the shit out of the majority of RoZ AF, I see no rush for Relics from these jobs to be added "just because."

Also, BLU gets motherfucking Homam and Nasheira, what the hell are you complaining about? What do COR, PUP, DNC and SCH get from Limbus?

Accessories! Wow, thanks SE!

Yeah, so cry me a river, BLUs.

Also, your friends are said losers with no lives, willing to grind away in this depraved endgame design to get what they want. Some of us would like to invest our time in seeing the outside world, playing sports, hanging out, going out for drinks, getting laid and whatnot. Or just play other games. We enjoy FFXI, but we want relics to be a challenge and not something that sucks our soul and work/social lives away.

[Ziero]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

My suggestions for Dyna wouldn't be terribly unique, just more of what's already been said;

Make it instanced like Assault, Lower the entry fee to 500k, increase drop rates on Relic Armor etc (and at least 1 guaranteed 100 piece from beating the boss). It wouldn't kill them to increase currency drop rates a little either. I don't disagree that this should take a sizable amount of time and effort, but the kind of money involved along with more than 4-6 months of work is insanity.

It's a fucking game, no matter how you slice it. If you want to give us epic weapons then make the challenge epic as well and not just a horrendously expensive, soul-crushing grind.

Not only have your ideas been said, repeatedly, they've been shot down by SE, repeatedly. Infact, they repeatedly said that they do not want Dynamis to be cheaper and they do not want relics to be easier to obtain.

Infact, one of the reason for the *new* relics is to give people who want a relic an easier way to obtain one...however they just won't be as strong. And I don't know about you, but *grinding* all that cash and all those months is pretty 'epic' to me.

Getting your ultimate weapon

Again, they are not your, they are the Ultimate weapons.

Getting my ultimate weapon...

There you go with that possessive stuff again. If you want it as badly as you seem to, you'll have no problem putting in the effort for it.

Can't Relics also entail an quest of epic proportions, including BCNMs, storyline and some of the hardest fights in the game?

You mean like obtaining a CoP Ring? Or getting that ToAU Crown? Cause if so, then no. Niether of those items are rare in any way shape or form, but both consist of *exactly* what you just suggested. Relegating these incredibly broken weapons to simple storyline quests and missions would completely negate the fact that very few (read:2-3 per server) people should be able to obtain them.

SE was literally surprised at how many Relic weapons there currently are in game. It's one of the reasons they hit inflation so hard.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Please, for the love of god attend the next fan fest, with your exact statement written down (okay, sans the cursing) and present it to these fossils we call the Dev team.

Again, these idea were brought up and shot down by SE, repeatedly.

Hell, I'd rather fight AV for my Amanomurakumo than devote years upon years and untold sums of gil to obtain one silly little virtual item.

You'd rather fight an unbeatable mob and hope you not only get lucky that the item drops, but also get lucky that you're allowed to join in the alliance to even have a chance to lot, as there would be a LOT more then 18 people there, and then get lucky and beat out everyone else who's lotting then actually work towards your goal?

That's...pretty ass backwards.

A lot of the relic weapons were owned by very prominent, historic figures in the game too. With WotG out now and the chance to meet most (maybe all?) of these NPCs, how about just a big old fuck you to Dynamis and instead introducing quests involving these NPCs where we either end up challenging them for their weapons, or in some way involving them in a epic BC's where they decide it's best to pass them on?

Again, how rare are CoP rings? How rare is the ToAU crown? What? They're not? Despite the fact that many people consider CoP to be one of the toughest, longest storylines in game and that to obtain the ToAU crown you not only have to beat ALL of the ToAU missions, but beat *every single assault* to obtain it?

Hard missions do not keep items rare.

Also, your friends are said losers with no lives, willing to grind away in this depraved endgame design to get what they want. Some of us would like to invest our time in seeing the outside world, playing sports, hanging out, going out for drinks, getting laid and whatnot. Or just play other games. We enjoy FFXI, but we want relics to be a challenge and not something that sucks our soul and work/social lives away.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So they're losers for actually working for it, but you want it easy? These are not toys for the uncommited, these are rewards for those who do want to work for them. Relics are a challenge, infact they're the greatest challenge this game has to offer. Infact their challenge is so hard that most people do nothing but bitch about how hard it is to get them and baselessly insult the people who do have them. Why shouldn't those who put in more time and more effort into this game then you do be able to obtain something you can't?

If you want "easy" relics, go after the Nyzul ones. gaurenteed they'll be a lot easier to get then the originals. For those who want to put in the time, effort and cash to get the originals though, they will have accomplished something far fewer people will ever do.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I think the fact that currency which is used for relics is entirely buyable is one of the biggest flaws. Any dipshit with $4000 could buy their relic from the RMT, in a manner of speaking. Yeah, making the gil yourself to finance your own relic is hard work, but there should be some other way of making it a timesink where the end result is not almost 95% buyable.

I understand that it should be rare. But anyone THF or /THF can make a bit of gil twice a week from using Steal on Dyna mobs, and I've been to some city runs where more than 800 currency (counting 100's) drop. It's not really that rare or hard to obtain, if you want currency. Getting the attestations and other shit is a bit more difficult but with a good dynamis shell it wouldn't take you more than a few weeks to get the one you're after, in most cases.

If the items required for relics were not sellable/buyable in any way, but required the same amount of work as farming for weeks for the gil to buy relics, then it would be better, at least in my opinion. Still make it hard as hell to get, but you have to amass some points or something with an NPC to advance to the next stage by doing things that take you all across the globe, sometimes solo and sometimes not, so that acheiving a relic is something you truly worked for. Give it an epic storyline, too.

I'm just unhappy that if I ever want a relic, I have to basically buy it. Hell if I win the Mog Bonanza I'll have my wish, but shit, because I am good enough at making gil only to sustain myself and the jobs I level, I'll never have one and I'm at peace with that. If it weren't buyable though, I might just start one, because I like working for things like stories, but farming bores me to tears.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I'm just unhappy that if I ever want a relic, I have to basically buy it.

While some are content to ignore this fact, it is basically the whole problem with relics in a nutshell.

You mean like obtaining a CoP Ring? Or getting that ToAU Crown? Cause if so, then no. Niether of those items are rare in any way shape or form, but both consist of *exactly* what you just suggested. Relegating these incredibly broken weapons to simple storyline quests and missions would completely negate the fact that very few (read:2-3 per server) people should be able to obtain them.

It should be just as epic as completing CoPs - CoPs are missions that require immense orgainization, good resourses and teamwork to complete. ToA and RoZ you can still do on pickups at practically no cost. But CoPs are a huge accomplishment for any player and CoP completion is widely considered a major plus for those applying to endgame linkshells these days.

I'd like to see long, job-specific mission-type quests pertaining to the completion of these weapons. These should actually be extentions of AF storylines. I don't care if it takes a long time to obtain them or if the quests are insanely hard, but simply buying them seems silly to me.

[Raydeus]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I still question the sanity of people going so far to get such crappy "Ultimate Weaponsâ„¢".

If what Ziero said was true then Relics would have way better stats. That would be the only way to justify their "intended rarity" because of their game breaking capabilities. But considering the Relic horn and shield are by far the most powerful weapons from the batch I can't help but question the point of it all. (And yeah I know they arent even weapons )

But then again, if people has the gil and time to get those weapons for bragging rights only then they should go for it. There isn't much left for people like that anyway.

[Temagori]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I completely agree with idea of making it as epicly diverse as CoP. CoP was a bitch and a half, but it was hard in so many different ways. I think that as far as expansions to end reward, CoP has the others beaten hands down.

If they could extend that same thought process to these new Relic Weapons I think everyone would be better for it. I truly would much rather have something that helped my job stand out even further and make that job more enjoyable from a relic weapon, then something that will allow me to do 100 more damage per fight or something of that nature.

These relic weapons need to be about job enhancement and not "OMG It's UBER POWERFUL!".

[Lmnop]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I think I'm finding that as 'bbq's swearing increases, so does the amount that I agree with his comments. Hmmm.

I don't want to see Dyna weapons "cheapened". I would like to see about half as much gil invested, and a shit-ton more rare/ex invested. A start would be something like say... a 100% drop from a KS99 fight that the goblins find equivalent to some large amount of Dynamis currency. Since the equivalent is rare/ex, you'd avoid monetary issues. In the meantime, it takes a long time to amass 99 KSs, but at least you're not just crafting and buying currency 24/7. Meh, just an idea.

The larger thing we all would like to see with the Dynamis relics is more use to endgame. An LS spends the better part of a year to get one of their members a flippin' Mandau and for what?

These weapons need more than damage.

To try to return to the main topic... I do think S-E will be smart enough to make these weapons the way relics should have been. But it'd be nice if this update came with a wonderful revamping of the old weapons. I could give examples but... you guys get the idea.

I also wouldn't mind these new "mini-Relics" having a strong emphasis on being completed by 6 people. Basically, the idea of a CoP static translated directly over to Nyzule Isle + Relic upgrade static. Something that all 6 people could work on together (difficult, since more than likely one of the 6 people from Nyzul Isle will get the drop and then decide they don't want to wait another 2000 floors 'til everyone else has theirs and so ditch their buddies).

[Malacite]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

Again, they are not your, they are the Ultimate weapons.

If this was the case, then there would only be one of each, and you could only attain one. Why the fuck are you defending a clearly broken system, or do you yourself have absolutely nothing in your life but this game?


Ziero you have just made my ignore list, congrats! And yes I'd rather fight AV because eventually, we'll discover how to beat him, and fighting him is far more epic than doing a million dynamis runs.


My other thought (though I doubt SE would ever go for this) is some kind of new Apocaplyse Nigh type quest set in the past involving the owners of the relic weapons coming together against an epic threat. The end result being your choice of a relic, of which you can only obtain one and there would have to be a massive wait time and requirements to redo said quest.



EDIT: I Forgot to mention that by making these the so-called "Best Weapons" in the game, then you just end up shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to creating new ones. SE already has in some respects, I mean look at the Destroyers for Christ sake! They parse very closely and yet Destroyers are much easier to obtain. Don't forget about Joyeuse either. While I'm confident Excalibur should come out on top, it'll be an even closer match up than Destroyers vs Spharai.

The fact is other than Aegis, Apocalypse and Gjallar Horn these weapons simply are not as game breaking as a lot of people think. I have personally merited with some of them (I've seen Yoichinoyumi int he hands of a RNG and a SAM/WAR using the GAX spamming Metatron Torment) and while they are impressive, they really don't seem worth the current investment in time and capital. And lastly, as BBQ said there's the whole hypocrisy of how it ignores their disclaimer entirely. They don't want us spending all our time on here, and then they go and add a bunch of items (not just relic btw, I'm looking at YOU Sky and Kings) that promote just the opposite.

Why wasn't relic armor an upgrade or continuation of the AF story?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I lost all respect for relics when the gil-buying, botting leader of a well known botting LS on Fenrir bought his way to his ninja relic. Slice it anyway you like, the systems for obtaining the majority of the best gear in FFXI are completely open to abuse by unscrupulous parties who very rarely receive the punishment they deserve.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Myriad Arms of Balrahn (02/05/2008)

I also wouldn't mind these new "mini-Relics" having a strong emphasis on being completed by 6 people. Basically, the idea of a CoP static translated directly over to Nyzule Isle + Relic upgrade static. Something that all 6 people could work on together (difficult, since more than likely one of the 6 people from Nyzul Isle will get the drop and then decide they don't want to wait another 2000 floors 'til everyone else has theirs and so ditch their buddies).

Actually I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Relic Upgrades from Nyzul actually entailed more Nyzul grinding. To me, Nyzul is an extention of the CoP mentality. While Nyzul may not be the gauntlet CoPs are, it requires the same kind of commitment, preparation and teamwork. It suceeds or fails for the same reason a CoP mission can.

But then, I LOVE doing Nyzul Isle for that reason, along with objectives and conditions being randomized to keep it interesting. Some may groan about the Pathos or Objectives like they do about the Judges' Laws in FFTA, but I like randomized objectives and conditions better than just repeating the same zone with the same strategy over and over and over again.

Hopefully, the upgrades to these weapons will be found within Nyzul itself, perhaps dropping from the HNMs or your garden variety NM on the various floors. Considering the sacrifice is not getting to do Assaults or Salvage while you do Nyzul, placing the upgrades in Nyzul itself would be totally fair and reasonable. Putting the in other ToA instanced endgame content would create conflicts.