New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

[Tsrwedge]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

SMN question. Will Spirits only cast so long after they've been summoned? Is it impossible to say... use Crescent Fang to open Distortion, dismiss Fenrir and start casting Ice spirit (1 second casting time, so the window is available), THF or something closes Distortion and your spirit would automatically attempt to hit the MB? Would be helpful if that worked. If spirits are a) smart enough to MB and b) don't have an initial "stand still" time upon being summoned, I'm confident you would have enough time to pull this off.

If I'm doing my maths right, with capped Summoning Magic, cast on Ice Day, with Ice Weather, wearing Summoner's Spats, it'll be 38 seconds until the Ice Spirit casts anything, and the spirit will wait 38 seconds between casts as well.

Source: Spirit Spell Casting Time - FFXIclopedia

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Frost Armor was always a good one with a sick paralysis rate, Earthen Ward was kinda meh, but still better than Aerial Armor IMO.

Actually, with the heavy use of Utsusemi these days, Earthen Ward is very nice to have, since it allows people to recast Utsusemi while absorbing a few blows from regular critters, or blunt big attacks from special monsters enough that they'd live until WHM can fire off a big Cure/Curaga.

Of course, we now have BLU for Diamondhide and SCH for Accession+Stoneskin, so it's not exactly a SMN-only ace card either.

Frost Armor looks like a good solution in search of a problem. x_x; If there's a monster susceptible to paralysis and has fast, regular attacks as AoE (as in every melee attack hits 360 degree), I don't know it. But, should it exist, Frost Armor would be just about perfect for it.

(Don't think it'd work for Faust, would it? It'd be funny to see it do spin-and-stop in fits.)

[Karinya]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

No; special attacks can't be stopped by paralysis. (And also won't trigger spikes effects, I don't think.)

[Pteryx]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

In fact, ever since that day I've been skeptical about how "useless" SMN melee is. It appears to be better than a DRG's wyvern... /shrug.

The trouble is this: Wyvern melee is free, and supplements a DRG's damage. Puppet melee/ranged is free, and the PUP himself supplements this damage. Jug pet melee is nearly free, and the BST themselves can melee. Avatar melee is not even remotely free except for Carby at high levels with the proper setup, and this cost interferes with SMN's ability to take supplemental actions (which, in SMN's case, shouldn't be melee). Therefore, avatar melee should be more effective than it is in order to balance with other pet melee, except maybe Carby's. If not, then there should be other benefits to keeping an avatar summoned aside from their ability to melee (the oft-proposed "aura" idea). While I think SE's original intent was for the avatar's TP gain to be that reason, the benefits of that still fail to outweigh the costs levied, and the realities of play mean that the summoner must dismiss their avatar between fights, nullifying that TP gain. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

People keep comparing Smn damage to Blm's, which I think isn't the right way to view them. IMO Smn damage should be more compared to melee WS or some such thing.

Why not? That's how it's always been in FF. Again, given that we're restricted to that one minute timer, what's wrong with jacking the power of pacts (along with their cost) so that we get our MP's worth? We still won't be able to put out the kind of spike damage a BLM can, nor do we have the skills needed at the ready if shit hits the fan.

The fact that we do both physical and magical damage forces a comparison on both fronts. The pacts that need boosting (DD wise) are the pre-70 pacts. The lv 70 BPs should just have their MP cost lowered, since they are quite powerful.

As for fixing avatar melee, why don't we just give the celestials the automatic enspell effects that the primes have? None of the primes really hit all that hard (physically) but their enspell damage can be huge, so why not make that apply to SMN as well?


EDIT: Wyvern melee is stronger than an avatars generally, in part because they partly ignore mob def (Avatars don't. Hell, SE even nerfed avatar damage against lower leveled targets years ago... WTF?). It wouldn't kill SE to increase their TP gain to at least 10 a hit either.

[Lmnop]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

That's how it's always been in FF.

I could do 20k damage/turn with mages or 80k damage/turn with melee in FF5. I, for one, am glad that this game isn't too much like previous FFs.

Oldschool SMNs buffed, too.

@Tsrwedge: I saw that, too. But I wasn't sure that it worked like that for every spell cast. What I mean is: I was thinking you would summon, it'd do something right away, and that 38 seconds or so delay would be how long 'til spell #2.

[Feba]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

so why not make that apply to SMN as well?

gogo knowing elemental weaknesses.

[Tsrwedge]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

@Tsrwedge: I saw that, too. But I wasn't sure that it worked like that for every spell cast. What I mean is: I was thinking you would summon, it'd do something right away, and that 38 seconds or so delay would be how long 'til spell #2.

Yeah, it's nasty like that. Parlor trick: buff an entire party using only Light Spirit.

[Pteryx]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

The lv 70 BPs should just have their MP cost lowered, since they are quite powerful.

...Huh? I don't think these need that kind of powerup, really. They're a big effect for a big cost; that's what SMNs are supposed to do. If anything, the weaker of them should be given tiny tweaks so that Predator Claws isn't the best of the best in 95% of situations. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

While I do agree with that principal, the MP cost still outstrips the damage done by the 70 BPs (in EXP sessions). Even if you dedicate yourself solely to performing those you're going to run out of MP pretty quickly.

And yeah I agree Feba, god forbid ppl have to learn what mobs are weak to what element and exploit that -. -'


Also why does everyone take it to the extreme when I bring up SMN in past FF games? No one is calling for the BS that was KotR or Eden, just a bit of a boost. I'd also like to go on record saying that I am against us ever getting Bahamut as an avatar on the grounds that SE nerfed Mega and Giga Flare

Non-elemental, unresistable dmg or GTFO.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Also why does everyone take it to the extreme when I bring up SMN in past FF games?

Probably because everyone else has figured out that this isn't a previous game.

Oh, and Vivi could easily out damage every Summon in IX.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Jug pet melee is nearly free, and the BST themselves can melee.

Jug pet melee gets up there with RNG/NIN/COR/THF in expenses. SMNs sit on thier butts to get thier avatars back, I pay gil or labor endlessly via crafting/farming to make my jug pet melee happen. And to get the really good jugs a lot of that is requisite since they're not often found or sold on AH. You need 100 Alchmey and 100 Cooking to do all the best jugs.

PUP also requires a bit of financial upkeep with the attachments and repair oils.

Automation and Wyverns are a 20 JA, they can't come back right away if they die soon after the ability is used. Wyverns Upkeep is at the expense of the DRG's own health.

SMN pet dies, they can almost instantly call it back again at full MP.

So in contrast to other jobs, Avatars are really, really FREE.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

SMNs sit on thier butts to get thier avatars back,

And everybody complains that they're leeching the exp/hour.

You can complain about all the gil you have to pay for your jobs and whatnot, but the point is is all that gil is very, very useful (and usable) in a pinch; avatars aren't.

Personally, what I think? Screw the current Blood Pact system and have each summon give the Summoner a unique "spellbook" of sorts. Make Summoning Magic "Pacts" like other magic in regards to skill and accessibility. That in and of itself would be a huge boon.

[Pteryx]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

So in contrast to other jobs, Avatars are really, really FREE.

We seem to be working on different principles of "free".

Yes, avatars cost no money. However, in the field, money rarely is a direct limiting factor in an actual fight. If it is, it's because of tool consumption (ammo, ninja tools, jugs, etc.), and even then, if it comes up that's due to poor planning far more often than actual cost. MP, OTOH, is frequently a direct limiting factor in an actual fight. The entire pacing and flavor of a party revolves around the way MP flows. Meleeburn is, in theory, built around minimizing MP use to the point that a RDM can do everything themselves without running out of MP. WAR is an impractical tank because they lean more on the healers' MP than other tanks. Utsusemi's brokenness has a lot to do with it being limited only by its timer and tools.

Avatars may not cost gil to maintain, but in combat MP is far more limiting than gil. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Probably because everyone else has figured out that this isn't a previous game.

Oh, and Vivi could easily out damage every Summon in IX.

Yeah and last I checked the name "Final Fantasy" was still in the title. And FFIX was retarded in terms of game balance anyway (Zidane was way, way too strong for a THF >_>)