New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

If that were the case I'm sure more SMNs would be going /BLM.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

i thought they didnt because the community wouldnt give them a chance

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Well true that, but really I doubt the conserve MP and INT from /BLM would prove to be useful in any case.

[tazirai]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

SMN doesn't necessarily need to deal massive AoE damage all the time to be a summoner. Heck, massive AoE damage has rather limited application in this game anyway. However, is it too much to ask that as a SMN, I get invited to summon for some purpose -- any purpose -- not to play gimp healer to a NIN + DDx4 party because no healers are seeking? (I really did have to turn down an unsolicited invite like that recently.) Is it too much to ask that I never again see a 70+ SMN still playing a curebot role based wholly on /WHM just because they've been convinced so thoroughly that that's all they're good for?

That being said, making summoner better at DDing against single targets before 70 would be nice. I'd love it if SMN's nukes were worth MBing, or if the physical and magical pacts were on seperate timers, or if avatar melee were accurate and/or strong enough to justify the cost. It might not be classic FF summoning, but at least it'd be related and adapted to the medium. -- Pteryx

I agree SMN need a huge Damage/mp boost. I'm grateful to SE for doing what they did, but SMn need to be major damage dealers pre 50+. Whether its with magical or physical attacks.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Does SMN really need better DD capability?

It is already unique in being able to open or close any Lv2 skillchain, from what? Lv.5-ish? Able to MB with any tier II nukes at Lv.10?

I am unsure how strong/weak are the Rage BPs it gains between 5 to 50, but SMN certainly get plenty of interesting Ward BPs during that period. (This is followed up by tier IV nukes at Lv.60, too.) All this, without even touching on what a SMN can do with its SP in an emergency.

Admittedly, the Ariel Armor is mostly obsoleted by the way people use /NIN and Utsusemi today. The other Armor BPs were designed for a time when people exp'ed with every melee shared blood tanking duty every single fight was an accepted style, which is now positively ancient history. So, some BPs do need to be updated (4-5 images for AA sounds about right), and some completely reworked.

However, there is not a great need to increase the damage dealt beyond making Avatar melee'ing more worthwhile. From what I can see, SMN is designed to support various form of partying and camps--it's meant to be uniquely flexible, not flatten a monster every fight. It's also designed to change in its duty and role on the climb to Lv.75.

Turning the sublimely flexible SMN into just another damage source takes something precious away from this game, IMO. I can only hope S-E disregard all the clamoring, and find a better way to help SMN fit into the game for exp partying.

[Karinya]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

The biggest problem with /SCH is it's spell selection. It doesn't have slow sleep or paralyze on it's own, nor blink/stoneskin/phalanx/haste.

I'm hoping SE will change this.

I think they won't. All of those except haste are subbable spells, and several are easily subbable. Giving away haste to more jobs would further undermine WHM.

I think making stratagems usable more often shows the direction they intend to take with SCH: outside the basic cures and nukes they get naturally, spell selection is *intended* to be influenced by subjob, and then you combine those spells with the stratagems that SCH gets naturally (which are the signature abilities of the job).

/SCH primarily makes you better at using the spells you already have on your main (through arts and the subbable stratagems); SCH main is good at using the spells you get from your sub (as well as its own spells). The ability to get B skill in any type of magic means that SCH subbing any basic mage is never stuck with a SJ spell they can't use due to skill limitations like WHM/BLM's aspir.

That doesn't work very well with SMN (in either direction); but they're also adjusting SMN separately. (Also: what Itaz said.)

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Refering to Itaz post about SMN,

All of that is true, SMN is a very versatle job able to many things, and has immense power. Provided we partied more traditionally, opening any number of SC's followed by a Teir 4 MB is nothing to be scoffed at and thats @ lvl.60. However like many of its compatriots in schools of magic they are asked to /whm and main heal, (SCH,RDM,BLM) all these jobs have become 1 trick ponies (except SCH a little early to tell how itll get pigeon holed) with limited options. Blm's aerent founf in parties because they dont want to main heal a colbri party or the like. (Imp's for example). RDM's get to 75 and often /NIN, /BLU and go solo there XP just to get out of the /whm roll they are pegged to for so long. SMN is probably the most situational next to RDM in terms of its BP's, but since we are now in year 3 of omg colibri's pwn we wont be seeng it used as anything but a glorified healer.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

i thought they didnt because the community wouldnt give them a chance

I've partied with a SMN/BLM before. I was RDM and was the healer. That SMN swore by the end of the party that they wouldn't ever go /blm again because they had nothing to do and they felt like they were leeching off the party.

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Going to have to really disagree with you there Itaz. Now granted my own personal experience playing the job is somewhat limited (I took it to 31 on my other character with Carby Mitts and all avatars except Fenrir and Diabolos) I really did find it to be rather lacking.

Just because SMN can open/close any SC doesn't make it practical. Some of those BPs (like Poison Nails) really suck, and the tier 2/4 nukes are a complete joke in the face of a BLM who can out damage them with spells of a lower tier quite easily.

No one here is saying we should pump the job to the point where all other DD become obsolete, that's just moronic. Some of us simply feel that the damage done from their melee and pacts simply does not match the MP spent to do so compared to other mage jobs (particularly BLM and BLU)

Hell, one time I bursted Fire II on a yuhtunga mandy with 200 TP on Ifrit (damn near used up all my MP doing so) and it still barely broke 120 dmg. That's a crapload of wasted MP.

[Coinspinner]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Able to MB with any tier II nukes at Lv.10?

Those nukes are surprisingly feeble. Tier II in name only.

(This is followed up by tier IV nukes at Lv.60, too.)

Ditto!

I wonder if the SC thing is underutilized though. Do (or can) SMN leave Carbuncle out while healing? If you can cast Poison Nails before a Rampage the Distortion might be well worth the effort due to it's low MP cost. Gogo TParty cheatin' SMNs. You can chain the low level physical BP's with most of the good WS actually, DRK excluded, but you'd need to call a more expensive Avatar than Carbuncle.

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

If you can cast Poison Nails before a Rampage the Distortion might be well worth the effort due to it's low MP cost.

Except that skillchains are still resisted far too often (SE is working on that though) and there are better rage pacts

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Are the SMN tier II nukes that bad on MB? I have a vague memory of my BLM being out nuked by SMN on Fusion MB in Yuhtunga Jungle, but not sure how reliable that is.

As for SC, I once had a party with a SMN x2 + BLM x2 back line in Garlaige Citadel. Weird set up, but it worked; the SMNs handled the curing load and SC'ed with no problem after a little coaching. SC from SMN is worthwhile when there's a BLM to MB, IMO, but not so much for the SC effect itself.

[Pteryx]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Are the SMN tier II nukes that bad on MB? I have a vague memory of my BLM being out nuked by SMN on Fusion MB in Yuhtunga Jungle, but not sure how reliable that is.

The thing about SMN nukes is that you have to build lots of TP through melee to bring them even on par with a RDM's -- and avatar melee isn't the most accurate thing in the world, so you may not even have much by the time a skillchain would go off. And that's not even taking into account that you have to dismiss an avatar in order to rest thus forcing you to start from 0 frequently, or the fact that when all is said and done you'll have spent far more MP than a BLM would have, or the fact that a BLM can actually nuke unfettered far more than once a minute, or that generally SMN's physical pacts are more damaging and consistent anyway.

As for SMN skillchaining... yes, that's underutilized, even by skillchaining standards. That probably rivals the Rage/Ward split in terms of important SMN updates. The trouble is, even if SC+MB parties were revived, SMN is in an awkward position. It can't really fully backline because it can only cast two useful spells per minute from its main job, and it can't really fully frontline because avatar melee is so weak and unreliable as to be very cost-ineffective. Thus, SMN's consensus role is MP/WHM, with SMN actually summoning being something that's almost never even considered when they're found seeking (and if it is, it's usually, "{Ecliptic Howl} prz. wat u mean the moon's wrong 4 acc up?"). Many SMNs don't even know how to function in a party where they aren't asked to main heal, and that's sad. -- Pteryx

[Lmnop]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

I'm in agreement with Itazura. We don't need more damage. The only thing I would do is try to make them more capable of DDing while doing their support role -- basically means a :Rage every minute as well as mostly non-stop melee (what they're capable of doing now if they do little else) in addition to a :Ward and supplemental support from their SJ.

And it'd be nice if the SMN buffs could compete with at least one BRD song.

One my favorite parties ever was still blm, blm, smn, brd, pld, war. Had the SMN main healing, but he was also opening distortion with Fenrir. Rampage close, double MB. Obviously, that was long before ToAU. But it was nice that we had a main healing SMN also contributing and it worked flawlessly. He also left Fenny out to melee on chain 5 mobs and I wasn't dissatisfied by his damage.

In fact, ever since that day I've been skeptical about how "useless" SMN melee is. It appears to be better than a DRG's wyvern... /shrug.

SMN question. Will Spirits only cast so long after they've been summoned? Is it impossible to say... use Crescent Fang to open Distortion, dismiss Fenrir and start casting Ice spirit (1 second casting time, so the window is available), THF or something closes Distortion and your spirit would automatically attempt to hit the MB? Would be helpful if that worked. If spirits are a) smart enough to MB and b) don't have an initial "stand still" time upon being summoned, I'm confident you would have enough time to pull this off.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

People keep comparing Smn damage to Blm's, which I think isn't the right way to view them. IMO Smn damage should be more compared to melee WS or some such thing.

From the Smn who I let summon in my parties, say in the Crawler's Nest, it's been awhile, but I remember the Megalith Throws were doing damage very close to my SA+Sturmwinds, normally 200-300 (I think, been awhile). Once a minute for that is pretty darn good. Metorite vs crabs was doing 450+ damage and more often in the 500s. I don't remember the numbers for Eclipse Bite, but that always seemed another decent one for summoners to use.

Buff-wise, I do agree with IfritnoItazura that a number of Summoner's buffs were more designed for the blood tanking era. Frost Armor was always a good one with a sick paralysis rate, Earthen Ward was kinda meh, but still better than Aerial Armor IMO.