New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

[Pteryx]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

SMN doesn't necessarily need to deal massive AoE damage all the time to be a summoner. Heck, massive AoE damage has rather limited application in this game anyway. However, is it too much to ask that as a SMN, I get invited to summon for some purpose -- any purpose -- not to play gimp healer to a NIN + DDx4 party because no healers are seeking? (I really did have to turn down an unsolicited invite like that recently.) Is it too much to ask that I never again see a 70+ SMN still playing a curebot role based wholly on /WHM just because they've been convinced so thoroughly that that's all they're good for?

That being said, making summoner better at DDing against single targets before 70 would be nice. I'd love it if SMN's nukes were worth MBing, or if the physical and magical pacts were on seperate timers, or if avatar melee were accurate and/or strong enough to justify the cost. It might not be classic FF summoning, but at least it'd be related and adapted to the medium. -- Pteryx

[Luna]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

ZOMG!!!!!!!!!! SCH YES!!!!!!! ok that update is going to stick a new light on SCH =) I am so excited! now I pray that SCH gets stoneskin and blink so we can finally go /BLM and burn the shit out of things gogo!

[Karinya]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

SMN doesn't necessarily need to deal massive AoE damage all the time to be a summoner. Heck, massive AoE damage has rather limited application in this game anyway. However, is it too much to ask that as a SMN, I get invited to summon for some purpose -- any purpose -- not to play gimp healer to a NIN + DDx4 party because no healers are seeking? (I really did have to turn down an unsolicited invite like that recently.) Is it too much to ask that I never again see a 70+ SMN still playing a curebot role based wholly on /WHM just because they've been convinced so thoroughly that that's all they're good for?

Don't blame SE for player stupidity. SMN *are* good for more than that, what (a few, unusually stupid) players think they're good for is not SE's fault.

Of course, most avatars *can* do massive AoE damage. But not all the time - 3 times every 2 hours.

It would be possible to convert the current AF BPs into normal BPs (that still take all your MP) and change AF to buff your avatar a la Familiar or Overdrive (in addition to the current elimination of the perp cost). SE apparently thinks that this would make SMN horribly broken; I tend to agree. (Unless you seriously reduced the all-MP BPs outside of AF, maybe. But then they'd be horrible wastes of MP most of the time, and the change wouldn't change much aside from shutting up Malacite.)

That being said, making summoner better at DDing against single targets before 70 would be nice. I'd love it if SMN's nukes were worth MBing,

When I was leveling SMN I would sometimes out-MB BLMs. I admit there is an awkward gap between low level and high level magical BPs that could stand to be filled in with a new set of mid-level magic BPs, but SMN can do considerable spike damage as it is. They just can't cast one nuke after another like BLMs. (Which is fine, because they can do many things that BLMs can't - not including /WHM, which is equally available to both.)

I assume you mean "before 65"...

or if the physical and magical pacts were on seperate timers,

That would take away from the idea of SMN filling multiple roles (rage, ward, SJ spells). The whole point of the rage/ward split was to encourage use of a *variety* of blood pacts, not just spamming the damage ones. If you want a pure DD there are several to choose from. This is not FFIV; summoner and black mage are different jobs that do different things.

or if avatar melee were accurate and/or strong enough to justify the cost.

Have you actually compiled numbers on damage dealt/MP spent and compared it to other ways of turning MP into damage (such as nukes)? People keep complaining about how "gimpy" avatar melee is without even the simplest attempt at collecting hard data on its effectiveness.

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

When I say massive AoE DMG I am specifically referencing FF 3-10. I'm not a retard you know, I'm well aware that being able to do their signature (AF) BP's constantly would be ridiculous.

That said there's no reason they can't power up avatars a bit so their DoT isn't a complete joke and pacts are at least on par with most WS. If we're going to be spending so much MP could we at least get something out of it? (in terms of DD. The buffs are mostly good save for Frost Armor, Crimson Howl and Rolling Thunder)


I would be perfectly content to main heal as a SMN if it was through avatars and not /WHM. I've said this a million times, I do not want to play a god damned WHM with auto-refresh. Is it really so much to ask that we get to keep our avatars out longer and use /WHM largely for ~na spells and buffs rather than Cure III !?

How about making avatar stats (HP, Attack, Accuracy etc) actually depend on Summoning Magic Skill instead of just your job level? The same goes for facts (that +skill update has got to be the most insulting thing I've ever seen them release. Imagine if BLM had to do that just to land nukes, or WHM to cure? I guarantee ppl would be up in arms)


Oh yeah and god forbid SE make something like SMN/WAR viable, where if one was so inclined you could gear up for melee combat and fight alongside your avatars. Probably wouldn't happen very often but it'd be cool. I feel the same way in regards to PLD/WAR as well but not gonna get into that.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Well It could save a bit of time on Normal > WoTG travel time. But only the time to warp to your home nation (who doesn't have it set there needs to be shot!) walk otuside, then walk back in the past.

So it could save a wee bit of time.

Only use for warpga I can see is after endgame events when everyone needs a D2.

Yes Warpga would be nice or for after a hard fought xp round warpga home.

However me being me

I would warpga everyone in the party then drop and go solo

evilTARU
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Also im glad i havent seen any RDM stuff, because either

1. they will fuck the job up in terms of spell casting
2. Make it to powerful, then nerf it a month later
3. Give our trademark spells away tor jobs
4. Blow up the universe by taking away the cure-tank
5. Make a redundant update that wont bring us to frontline
6. Give us a new spell to cast on the party increasing our load even more
7. Give us a useless Job Ability- (like the watery berserk idea i read on ALLA)

Or they could Make it a balanced job

1. Not alter the current spells or melee abilities
2. Drop less useful traits and give M.ACC (I.E MAB, MDEF)
3. An ability to convert MP > TP (since we are masters of mp manipulation)
4. Or an ability to sacrafice or not used divine or dark skills to ACC/ATK
5. More equipment that raises ACC/ATK with out needing to spend months in Endgame situations, and not sacraficing our MP/INT/MND gear.


Im glad to be in the dark because the fact is RDM is a tricky job to change things on as we are pretty damn powerful. Not knowing how they will ruin or make the job better is a blessing to me.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

not used divine or dark skills

I don't know about you, but I use my Dark skill, a lot. Chainspell Stun, anyone? I would be pissed off at SE if they lowered our Dark Magic skill or took it away completely.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Say /SCH and I'll strangle you, because it has no status cures or defensive magic under sub. All /SCH gives is B Skill Aspir and its lame to have a subjob for one thing only. When you're in a situation that demands status cures, Blink, Stoneskin and Barspells, you won't have them.

/SCH ftw ^^ im pretty sure garuda has an earase ability (whispering wind i believe and is it not AoE? if it is thats more MP friendly then 4-6x erase)

/SCH gives mp reduction cast time reduction so smn can cast longer and faster if you need cure 3's. Thus allowing them to have SMN's out longer.

/SCH gives B skills in all forms of magic to the SMN so even if its not viable to have a summon out, they can still cast a nuke,enfeeble,cure,enhancement with decent efficentcy.

But its all about /whm like every other job that has a cure ><.

The Elemental Absorb thing sounds pretty cool. I wonder if it will work like FF8 GF type thing where you can boost your(party) stats depending on the element that is out.
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I don't know about you, but I use my Dark skill, a lot. Chainspell Stun, anyone? I would be pissed off at SE if they lowered our Dark Magic skill or took it away completely.

If your going to be chainspell stuning you wont be planing to use the ability to increase your melee ability its pretty simple. Its like converting at full MP just cuz the convert timer is up.

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

The biggest problem with /SCH is it's spell selection. It doesn't have slow sleep or paralyze on it's own, nor blink/stoneskin/phalanx/haste.

I'm hoping SE will change this.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

If your going to be chainspell stuning you wont be planing to use the ability to increase your melee ability its pretty simple. Its like converting at full MP just cuz the convert timer is up.

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying ... you mean an ability that temporarily lowers our Dark Magic skill to temporarily heighten our Sword skill or something?

Not sure I'd be up for something like that, it'd be cool but I probably wouldn't find much of a use for it.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying ... you mean an ability that temporarily lowers our Dark Magic skill to temporarily heighten our Sword skill or something?

well you know how berserk works right. Instead of the one i heard on alla - where it was berserk pretty much except weaker- I figured we could sacrafice something we may not need at the time. Give us a 15% atk boost while sacraficing dark and divine skills to an E rate over the period of time it lasts.

I wouldnt have much use for it either im just spit balling, i just dont want them to give us a boost and take something away that we cant get back. At least this way we'd be in control of when it occurred.
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The biggest problem with /SCH is it's spell selection. It doesn't have slow sleep or paralyze on it's own, nor blink/stoneskin/phalanx/haste.

I'm hoping SE will change this.

I dont agree, Look at the jobs SCH is Mostly going to be subbed to

WHM- Stoneskin,Blink,Haste,Paralyze,Slow,Repose
BLM- Spikes, Sleep,Sleep2,Sleepga,Sleepga2, Bind
RDM- Phalanx,Stoneskin,Blink,Parlyze,Sleep,Sleep2,Gravity,Bind,slow
SMN- Avatars, Blink,Stonekin,Phalanx,Haste

All these jobs could be using /SCH and all have the abilities you looking for. Now to get all those spells (Save SMN's) You just Sub them all into SCH and presto.
The only real slacker is /BLM but its more or less a solo sub, or endgame for moving around.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

In the context of SMN/SCH:

/SCH gives B skills in all forms of magic to the SMN so even if its not viable to have a summon out, they can still cast a nuke,enfeeble,cure,enhancement with decent efficentcy.

Well, SMN/SCH has very few spells using Enfeebling or Enhancing Magic, outside of Protect, Shell, Sneak and Invisible. Unless Regen is Enhancing? Not that the skill does anything for Regen...

SMN using /SCH is pretty much for Cure, Regen, Raise, and Aspir; enfeebling and enhancing has little to do with it. (For Protect/Shell, /WHM will do better with the -ra version.) Occasional MB with tier II spells for laughs, maybe...

[Neomage]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

I think it would be a little overpowering if it only weakened Dark Magic. I think it should weaken all magic skills temporarily, in exchange for a higher sword skill. You can still cast En-xxxx, Stoneskin, and Blink before using the ability, so these won't be nerfed, but you can't melee/nuke at the same time.

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

I also thought elemental skill boosts/ MAB boosts increased avatars Nuking ability am i wrong in this?

[Malacite]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

You are. Would be nice if SE could change this perhaps? (I.E. your SJ can affect what your avatars can do?)

[MrMageo]

Re: New Battle Adjustments (6 March 2008)

Ok i always thought that avatars shared the Strnghts weakness and traits of the caster. Thanks for clearing that up.