Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

The job scales up in power, like many, many other jobs. If they ended up being just like BLMs, there would be no advantages to being one or the other. There's no better subjob out there for SMN than /WHM, so by nature of the main jobs design, /WHM fufills a higher capability for healing than it would if you was under BLM main.

And Scholar?

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

You could take out "SMN" from that first paragraph and insert about 16 other jobs not named RDM or COR and that statement would hold true. So how does that little anecdote show what's wrong with SMN?

The only jobs I haven't merited with are:

PUP, DNC, SCH.

The only jobs that I have yet to have a pleasurable experience meriting with are:

SMN, BLM. 2 Jobs that S-E knows are having troubles fitting in.

------------------------

My basic Bard argument is just that it's useful in almost every situation. Light based, mp-free AoE sleep with low resist rate, for starters. C rank skills means jack shit since every offensive song uses 2 skills to figure. Carnage Elegy is more potent than any debuff a RDM could ever throw out.

I could go on and on, but please don't make me.

People say BRD is nothing w/out a party and that balances them. But this is a party game.

When you simply cannot make 20k/hour w/out a BRD, the job has become too essential.

I will not discuss this further in this thread, as we have enough off-topics as is.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

You could take out "SMN" from that first paragraph and insert about 16 other jobs not named RDM or COR and that statement would hold true. So how does that little anecdote show what's wrong with SMN?

Actually it applies to all 20. Just because three of them have easier invites doesn't mean there's any less of a headache or thier own job issues to deal with.

BRD, RDM and COR can all be a hell of an inventory to maintain. A dedicated COR is always going to have to have gil ready and ammo stocked away to do thier thing. They also happen to be jobs that likely remain probably the most busy within any party, when one minute passes where these jobs aren't doing anything, the party tends to notice.

And Scholar?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

If you're implying SCH somehow doesn't scale in power, you're going to have to explain your position, because it does scale in power.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And what's wrong with SE changing how avatars work based on SJ? The DRG's wyvern acts differently according to SJ, and SE has even gone on saying that they plan to expand the wyvern's actions in battle. I'd also like to point out that unlike SMN, BST DRG and PUP can still fight decently without their pets present. A SMN has jack shit to rely on outside of their sub without a pet.

Lowest physical stats in the game + lousy combat ratings + mage gear = pansy with a stick. Oh yeah, DRG can main heal with healing breath, in addition to PUP with Soulsoother, so why not have SMN be a main healer with an avatar? (Carby, Phoenix, Garuda, Leviathian and Alexander are all good candidates >.>)

Shit, SMN's been doing that since it's inception. So WHAT if it's an online game? That doesn't mean SE can't try to please the fan base and keep it balanced. Why can't SMN play the way it has in previous games; Careful management of MP. Just because they're pets now and stay out (or not, has been the case for a while now ><) is no excuse. (Okay, it does play this way to an extent right now, but the major problem is that the MP spent just isn't worth it outside of the lv 70 BPs against HNMs and buffs like stoneskinga and noctoshield, both of which SCH can do more effectively now!)

If a SMN wants to go BP-happy and blow all their MP thus slowing down the party (or worse) then so be it. I say power up the avatars, make them more distinguished from each other (I had a rather long list in another thread) and let us have fun playing with our kick ass gods. Increased enmity for blood pacts (especially if you're continually using them) is another idea to balance this, so that the mob eventually gets the picture and goes after the much more vulnerable SMN.

[Murphie]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Maybe a SMN without avatars isn't meant to fight. I mean, you're still basing your entire argument around the fact that you want SMN to be a damage powerhouse, with or without avatars.

There are 19 other jobs in the game. If you're not happy with the way SMN plays, then don't level it. Which you aren't, so I really don't get why you keep going on about it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

News Flash: Online game. We usually fight one mob at a time here and have melee jobs to think about and balance as well. Mage and support jobs come with so many perks and advantages that I find the "woe is me" attitude annoying when uttered by a RDM, BRD or COR. Woe is nothing, they have it pretty damned good. They have something that gets them invited.

Actually it applies to all 20. Just because three of them have easier invites doesn't mean there's any less of a headache or thier own job issues to deal with.

BRD, RDM and COR can all be a hell of an inventory to maintain. A dedicated COR is always going to have to have gil ready and ammo stocked away to do thier thing. They also happen to be jobs that likely remain probably the most busy within any party, when one minute passes where these jobs aren't doing anything, the party tends to notice.

. . . wut?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

How is /WHM better than /SCH? You just said yourself /SCH is a subbable B-ranked Aspir (great for getting MP back to maintain your summon and BPs), and, at a different time, is going to have a B-Ranked Healing Skill, as opposed to a half-Skill from /WHM.

If you are referring to status cures, et al, I would prefer a dedicated White Mage to a /WHM anyday, and even so, the Summoner itself has Leviathan's Healing Springs at the ready, anyways.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

. . . wut?

I don't understand your confusion, but then, you're not exactly up there in RDM level yet. RDM, BRD and COR have a lot of good things going for them, so much people are allowed to underplay the jobs and still get invited for two essential abilities.

Dispel and Refresh. Hard to have stellar PTs without those. RDM also has MP endurance, enfeebling and curative ability. BRD and COR have buffs in their favor. RDM helps a PT outlast a mob while a BRD or COR give the PT a gross advantage over the mob.

Invites are the easiest part of the job, though. But once you have refresh/haste cycles on RDM, more enfeebling to do and cures or status cures to take care of, it gets a lot more work going on. You have to be on top of your game to manage doing most of this and keeping your MP up.

BRD and COR don't just stand there buffing and nothing else, COR has DD capability and BRD is a popular puller. COR has to maintain buffs, keep a watchful eye on enfeebles to enhance with Quick Draw, they can DD as well as sleep possibly links. BRD doesn't have the DD capability, but depending on sub it can make and efficient PT even more efficient through /WHM by not only Ballading to refill mage MP, but using its tiny MP pool to cover things like status cures so the WHM can focus purely on curing the party. BRDs can sleep the links, too.

Some people can do these things AND pull, all while keeping buffs up. I know RDMs that can just keep going and going no matter what you throw at them. It takes a bit of skill to do these things. THAT is now its "not easy." Not all of us just take up these jobs for easy merits, some truely do strive to use these jobs to make PTs as effective as possible, not to mention maximize thier event potential.

SE seems to be making its final refinements to COR soon, namely in the next Quick Draw adjustment. While not exactly an AoE QD ability, borrowing the "Strategem" concept for QD is a brilliant alternative solution, allowing CORs to QD in succession. After that, its just a matter of what DNC and SCH Rolls are. BRD will get a AoE to Single Target ability, which is concept borrowed from RDM merits, should boost thier abilities to work with a PLD and frontline MP users a lot better, not to mention Minuet RNGs like RNGs would like to be. What RDM gets is a mystery as of now, but it seems SE does understand RDM is a dedicated caster and its not meant to covert them to DDs (as some RDMs are insanely expecting).

How is /WHM better than /SCH? You just said yourself /SCH is a subbable B-ranked Aspir (great for getting MP back to maintain your summon and BPs), and, at a different time, is going to have a B-Ranked Healing Skill, as opposed to a half-Skill from /WHM.

If you are referring to status cures, et al, I would prefer a dedicated White Mage to a /WHM anyday, and even so, the Summoner itself has Leviathan's Healing Springs at the ready, anyways.

If I'm gonna sub something, I'm not going to do it for one perk. That B skill in Dark Magic would mean a bit more to WHM or RDM main. SMN has MP to spare and /WHM offers more curative abilities.

WHM doesn't do status cures better than anyone /WHM save for one status cure - Stona, because only WHM can do it. Status cures do not get resisted. All other situations, particularly where one ISN'T main healing and a WHM is, is common courtesy amoung mages (or at least it was before ToA) that a RDM or BRD would help cover status cures for the WHM so they can, again, focus on healing only. If my BRD can do anything with its pitiful manapool, why not use it to benefit the WHM and cover those status cures? To me, BRD is about PT efficiency. COR isn't all the different, I just mix DD in more commonly than MP and now with /DNC, I can even help efficiency in status cures that way.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Its utterly wrong to shove a BRD into a party of BLMs and have them do nothing more than Ballad.

This is why i wonder why do i even bother throwing millions into my bard when im only going to sing two songs in endgame, Ballad I and Ballad II, forget about the Kirins osode, just demerit all my wind merits, just sell all my gear and sha'ir gear and wear AF because all im going to do...

is Ballad I and II...

Its the sad truth...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

OK I did make that comment Selphiie quoted, I just edited out a really rant-ish paragraph back there so it didn't appear in that post. Guess I'll rant anyway.

I would like to see BRD improved so its utilized more properly at endgame instead of being used for such shallow ends. Its a manabucket at endgame. COR is your guy to stick in the mage PT, I don't mind it so much because I'm better mage support than a BRD. But why must both jobs be relegated to the BLM PTs when we have great melee buffs, too? Why must RDM be a bitch healer at endgame - it can do more.

I guess I'm just still looking for a linkshell that will use these jobs more intelligently. We're not just there to refresh. Those melee buffs weren't just for merit PTs and EXP, they're good at endgame too. Just because we're rare at endgame and few people want to play these jobs isn't an excuse of using them so poorly.

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And Scholar?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

Still better? True, /WHM gets status cures and curaga, but SCH has it's own tool that is very beneficial to a healer:

Regen II.

Very MP efficient, easy to use, and low enimity. You still get Raise, and Light Magic reduces the MP cost and casting time of cures. Not to mention, as you said, Drain and Aspir. These scale directly off of Dark Magic skill, not just the accuracy but the base damage as well. This means they can be really efficient tools for a SMN even if Drain is only utilitized for DoT.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I would like to see BRD improved so its utilized more properly at endgame instead of being used for such shallow ends. Its a manabucket at endgame. COR is your guy to stick in the mage PT, I don't mind it so much because I'm better mage support than a BRD. But why must both jobs be relegated to the BLM PTs when we have great melee buffs, too?

Haven't been in endgame for that long. So far, I've seen BRD used for/in/with:
- Tank party (March for PLD/NIN's, Ballad for the back line jobs)
- Melee party (crowd control, buffs, Ballad for WHM in Dynamis, SV melee songs for Dynamis Lord and Kirin; ES Elegy on Hydra; and etc.)

Fair amount of variety. Oddly enough, I've rarely seen BRDs used with the BLM party.

Why must RDM be a bitch healer at endgame - it can do more.

No need for name calling; there's nothing wrong with playing healer or just playing flexibly. *shrug*

That said, I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.

I guess I'm just still looking for a linkshell that will use these jobs more intelligently. We're not just there to refresh. Those melee buffs weren't just for merit PTs and EXP, they're good at endgame too. Just because we're rare at endgame and few people want to play these jobs isn't an excuse of using them so poorly.

You have your own event LS now, don't you? There's your answer. It's a shame to let a BRD75 go to waste.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

see above

Can I come to your server and join your LS?

Even running the show at events, it's often hard to get people to play the way you want them to. Especially when getting a bard for the melee party means telling someone they're not allowed to bring their DRG. That's a good way to feel shallow. You can either misuse BRD or spit on people for wanting to use their melee.

This game shouldn't have so much moral ambiguity. >_>

P.S. I don't like misquoting, but just wanted the quote-link for clarity. Don't be offended. :O

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Haven't been in endgame for that long. So far, I've seen BRD used for/in/with:
- Tank party (March for PLD/NIN's, Ballad for the back line jobs)
- Melee party (crowd control, buffs, Ballad for WHM in Dynamis, SV melee songs for Dynamis Lord and Kirin; ES Elegy on Hydra; and etc.)

Fair amount of variety. Oddly enough, I've rarely seen BRDs used with the BLM party.

I have the feeling, as I do from most of your posts, you play with a lot of seasoned or Japanese players. NA Linkshells tend to see BRD as a Refresh monkey, even the good NA endgame shells tend to think like this. Its rare to find an NA or, especially EU LS where bards are used properly.

No need for name calling; there's nothing wrong with playing healer or just playing flexibly. *shrug*

My phrasing was meant to say RDM screwed into the healer role, I wasn't bagging on RDMs that don't mind it, I was complaining about what they're almost always forced to be that. RDM can be way more versatile in endgame than it was in EXP.

That said, I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.

Your experience doesn't mean its like that for everyone. Some LSes are just really poor about keeping mages interested, involved and geared up.

You have your own event LS now, don't you? There's your answer. It's a shame to let a BRD75 go to waste.

Its mostly a mission LS which, if things go well, will expand into a Limbus. Limbus is something most people can do on thier own terms. And its much shorter, so its not as draining on any jobs I have. That said, I just don't like being a BRD, even if its 75, I won't play it unless I see a reason to do so.

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Since you are a bard, and you run a event linkshell, you can dictate your(and other Bard's) terms. You know what it is like to be exploited and not used to your full potential. You know what it is like to not give everything you can. The problem with Bards is mostly a community issue. This problem won't fix itself if you sit around whining and complaining about how Bard does not get into melee parties. Get up and DO something about it.

And FYI, on Midgardsormr, Bards DO go into the melee parties, while the BLMs get CORs and RDMs. Either your sever and the people on it don't know much about FFXI compared to every other server, or you are making the situation out to be much, much worse then it really is. I'm leaning to number 2.

[Karinya]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And what's wrong with SE changing how avatars work based on SJ? The DRG's wyvern acts differently according to SJ, and SE has even gone on saying that they plan to expand the wyvern's actions in battle. I'd also like to point out that unlike SMN, BST DRG and PUP can still fight decently without their pets present. A SMN has jack shit to rely on outside of their sub without a pet.

And the SMN's pet is at least 3x stronger than any of those other jobs' pets, and doesn't have a multiple MINUTE recast timer if it dies. (And so far the extent of "expanding the wyvern's actions in battle" has been Super Climb.)

Lowest physical stats in the game + lousy combat ratings + mage gear = pansy with a stick. Oh yeah, DRG can main heal with healing breath,

Are you joking? Healing breath won't trigger unless the party member is below 50% hp, and *then* you have to wait several more seconds for it to go off. It's dangerous enough trying that shit on a tough. There's no way it would work in a full party as anything more than a very limited emergency backup heal.

in addition to PUP with Soulsoother, so why not have SMN be a main healer with an avatar? (Carby, Phoenix, Garuda, Leviathian and Alexander are all good candidates >.>)

Maybe you didn't notice, but Carby, Garuda and Leviathan all already have healing BPs (in addition to the healing SMN can do through SJ). Leviathan's even removes status ailments at the same time.

Healing once a minute would be kind of limiting, which is why SMN healers rely on regular magic the rest of the time.

I haven't seen a PUP main healer yet, but it's my understanding that they have to use /DNC to make up for the times when the puppet doesn't heal the right person at the right time.

Shit, SMN's been doing that since it's inception. So WHAT if it's an online game? That doesn't mean SE can't try to please the fan base and keep it balanced. Why can't SMN play the way it has in previous games; Careful management of MP.

Ok, you can have the avatars' classic attacks (currently the 2hours) any time you want. In exchange, you can no longer recover MP except at inns (mog house) and by using items, just like in those classic games. Deal?

"Careful management of MP" doesn't mean the same thing in a game with resting and refresh effects. That's why the avatars' super attacks have a *new* limitation: Astral Flow recast time.

This isn't previous games. Lots of things work differently, especially MP, which is about 1000x easier to get back than it ever was in classic FFs. You really can't expect MP-based mechanics to work the same way.

Just because they're pets now and stay out (or not, has been the case for a while now ><) is no excuse. (Okay, it does play this way to an extent right now, but the major problem is that the MP spent just isn't worth it outside of the lv 70 BPs against HNMs and buffs like stoneskinga and noctoshield, both of which SCH can do more effectively now!)

Wrong. Even once SCH is high enough level to do those things at all (which relies on their subjob, because otherwise they wouldn't even have the spells), they're still on a minimum *4* minute recast timer, and that's assuming you're just going to suck up the casting time and MP cost penalties and not try to stratagem-combo to offset them. (If you think SMN's dependence on its recast timers is bad, you really don't want to ever try SCH.) And you don't mention SMN buffs or debuffs with no equivalent from another job, like several of Fenrir's.

SMN needs, at most, tweaks: another look at perp costs, spirits casting sooner/more often/smarter, rework of some bugged/too weak BPs. The job is useful and wanted in a variety of settings as it is, and some people clearly have no problem leveling; the fact that it isn't the job *you* want it to be doesn't make it "broken".

If a SMN wants to go BP-happy and blow all their MP thus slowing down the party (or worse) then so be it. I say power up the avatars, make them more distinguished from each other (I had a rather long list in another thread) and let us have fun playing with our kick ass gods. Increased enmity for blood pacts (especially if you're continually using them) is another idea to balance this, so that the mob eventually gets the picture and goes after the much more vulnerable SMN.

So you'd rather weaken or eliminate one of SMN's most unique and powerful advantages (the avatar having its own enmity) in order to be more like BLMs? I'm glad SE doesn't listen to you.