New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

[Callisto]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Welcome to DRG and DRK ; ;

... and I greatly resent the "DD Happy" remark. Occasionally I'll try to solo mobs with /DNC, but for the most part I run with the group dynamis-style and try to mow down the mobs one-by-one. You make it sound like we're not watching our HP when I sure as hell am. Soon as I see those 400-600 Battle Dances flying my way I run like hell. Let the meleetards die to him >_> (you're not completely wrong; there are ppl go do DD happy but not all of us)

Not that I don't understand that the random big damage moves happen, but at the same time, it's annoying to see so many bitching about RDMs 'not doing their job' by not raising DDs that get killed and curing everyone around them.

I'll be blunt about 2 things:

1) If I wanted to babysit people who need curing, I'd A) level WHM or B) go merit on my RDM. I do Campaign almost entirely to be able to freely DD without being responsible for main healing.

2) Not to come off as rude or elitist, but it's true: I don't need a WAR/NIN or whatever DD's help to solo a Campaign mob, or even to kite a whole train of Campaign mobs while NPCs pick them off, however the DD does need my help to stay alive and/or get up off the ground and they die. Not that I don't raise people in Campaign, because I do very often, but the fact is I could easily go solo the mobs that are still up without anyone else's help and raise them after the fight is over, especially since they don't completely lose XP for it like they do in Besieged, so I don't appreciate people spamming me /t's QQing for raises when I just dished out 5 of them.

Campaign is a fun blow-off event, it's not Dynamis, a RDM, WHM, or any other job isn't required to do crap to participate. If you really want to worry about RDMs not raising people when they 'should be' or about surviving the battle, you could always go as RDM yourself.

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I still think that's going to change. Let's see how well all those meletards fare when you've got regenerating beastmen backed by elite troops guarding siege weapons >_>b

It's a team effort, plain and simple. No one really demands you do anything, but it wouldn't kill some people to help out either. Nor would it kill SE to greatly adjust the EXP given to by support roles. They should dramatically increase the EXP given by raising people, but also stick a hard cap on it (maybe 500-1000?) so that people aren't dieing deliberately just to cap out EXP for others. That, and/or stiffen the death penalty from 30 EXP to say at least 100.

[Truece]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

They should dramatically increase the EXP given by raising people, but also stick a hard cap on it (maybe 500-1000?) so that people aren't dieing deliberately just to cap out EXP for others. That, and/or stiffen the death penalty from 30 EXP to say at least 100.

Yeah, gotta be careful, otherwise, instead of having mages who won't cure because they're too busy swinging at mobs you'll have mages who won't cure because they get better rewards out of raising the dead!

Happy medium... can I have it?

[LilithAngel]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Having trouble targetting the people who need cures and support in a sea of PCs and NPCs clustered around some mob or NM? It's really simple, so simple no mage has an excuse for it (especially if you've ever attended a Dynamis):

1) Target the mob in question.
2) /assist <t>

There's who you need to help. Easy.

I take BLU/PLD to Campaign, and I hardly have any problems staying alive (trust me, if I can tank Softstep through several of his and his boyfriend's Ore Tosses back to back, Hundredfists and multiple instances of his two hours, or four Shieldwarriors all at once for a good 5-10 minutes without support, without dying during all that, then yeah, you know I know how to stay alive). But not everyone can put together a suite of defense and offense like that, and have to choose one or the other. It's then when people need to work together to stay alive.

RE melee healing: it's far, far, far easier for a mage to rest up MP through gear, food, and abilities than it is for a melee to rest HP. Mages also have a pool that's not as big at times as some melees (MNK, PLD, and most any job on a Galka, for example), so it's not quite as efficient to have them resting when they could be out there, helping defend the fort, with someone else providing some support. I've yet to see any melee (outside maybe the random odd NIN or PLD) sub anything other than /WHM or /DNC, and even then, they still need support, since the mages that don't bother to help do nothing more than add TP to the mob.

Between waves I slap on my Vermy for MP, letting /PLD, Sigil, and that fill my mp while I reapply buffs, Magic Fruit some HP back, and get ready for the next wave. MP Drainkiss and soloing Light for Magic Hammer easily fills in the rest. Not everyone has those options though, and again, when you can't run around with the ability to (almost literally) change your abilities and job on the spot, you need to work with others. However, if you do so, you really do need to work together, and not just leech. Both mages and melee are guilty of this, I understand, but mages moreso than melee.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

If I see someone run up to a mob I'm fighting, and they're a Summoner, Scholar, or a job ending in Mage (and their first name isn't Blue or Red) they had damn well better pull out the cures and support or they can tank the mob (Hydro Shot is nice to force someone else to tank ).

I thanked you just for this.

Though, being a benign Taru, I'd be more than happy to assist all I am able in every way I am able, so long as the assisted are able and willing to prove to be devoid of a negative INT score.

Please return the favor by allowing me to explore every aspect of my job as possible.

Also take note I'm still in my High-20's, so all I can say on "Campaigning" could barely fill a bucket, if even that.

But, still, if I were there, I would be more than happy to help if I were able to!

[Truece]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Having trouble targetting the people who need cures and support in a sea of PCs and NPCs clustered around some mob or NM? It's really simple, so simple no mage has an excuse for it (especially if you've ever attended a Dynamis):

1) Target the mob in question.
2) /assist <t>

There's who you need to help. Easy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this work if I'm engaged with and fighting a mob? I would think that you would get some message like: unable to perform that action on the selected sub-target. So, /assist is out for those meleeing mages, which is exactly the ones that this thread appears to be targeting.

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

replace <t> with <st>

[LilithAngel]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

replace <t> with <st>

I keep forgetting about the Select Target syntax function when I'm not actively making macros. <stnpc> and <stpc> are fun to use when you're dead, so you can keep track of the mob's health as you're busy chewing dirt.

Yes, this is incredibly helpful when I'm slugging away at a mob. I put it on my Magic Fruit and Cure macros. Just a few tabs later, and I'm on target. The game gives everyone all the tools they need to do their jobs, regardless of that person's engagement status, so there really is no way to have me believe you can't do something to help others while you're fighting (unless, of course, you're simply admitting you have no skill or are just lazy). The macro commands are a real boon in large-group scenarios like this, because I'm well aware of the fact that tabbing around or typing in commands can be slow and/or tedious at times, but making your macros work for you makes everything easier, and helps keep everyone alive as much as possible.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Having trouble targetting the people who need cures and support in a sea of PCs and NPCs clustered around some mob or NM? It's really simple, so simple no mage has an excuse for it (especially if you've ever attended a Dynamis):

1) Target the mob in question.
2) /assist <t>

replace <t> with <st>

If /assist <t> doesn't work to tell you who the monster is beating on while you're engaged/locked on, why would /assist <st> work? I'll have to test this to be sure, but it seems odd to me.

In any case, if there's a tank, I'd know who to cure even without such a macro. If the monster is turning ever which way, what good is it to find out who it wanted to beat on 5 seconds ago?

there really is no way to have me believe you can't do something to help others while you're fighting (unless, of course, you're simply admitting you have no skill or are just lazy).

Or, the mages don't care, because it's not their party, and not their responsibility? Just another possiblity.

Now, while I believe mages should try to be helpful to others--in fact, everyone should be more helpful to others, not just meages--I reject the idea that they are somehow duty bound to cure other people while soloing.

It's a choice.

[Richie]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

My cures are for the people in my party and no one else. If you want some of it you better join up or have an ether and an xp scroll for me when I'm done spamming cures on you. You're just as selfish for playing as a job that can't cure as I am for choosing to not cure you. And for raises if you're non /dnc or /whm or a job that can cure itself you can forget about it. Campaign is not a place for MP sponges, you're ruining the fun for others because you're too lazy to play a job that can cure.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Richie, your kind are who make us other Mages look bad.

I mean, aren't practitioners of White Magic supposed to be envoys of charity or something?

[Richie]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Not letting people take advantage of you is a bad thing now I guess...
Oh well I guess I'm a bad person.

[Karinya]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I take BLU/PLD to Campaign, and I hardly have any problems staying alive (trust me, if I can tank Softstep through several of his and his boyfriend's Ore Tosses back to back, Hundredfists and multiple instances of his two hours, or four Shieldwarriors all at once for a good 5-10 minutes without support, without dying during all that, then yeah, you know I know how to stay alive). But not everyone can put together a suite of defense and offense like that, and have to choose one or the other. It's then when people need to work together to stay alive.

I usually go as DRG/WHM, which is very survivable (although not quite as much as you describe for BLU/PLD) and can also reraise myself (as long as I'm not re-killed before I unweaken and have enough MP to recast my RR, which rarely happens).

But I think that anyone who brings a non-self-sufficient job combo to Campaign should make some effort to join or form a party that compensates for their weaknesses rather than just whining about how they need other people's help and they're not getting it. Any job in the game can, with the right subjob, heal for MP *or* for TP. (None of the subjobs necessary is exactly difficult to get to level 37 with, either.) Demanding that someone reduce their own exp/AN so that they can help you when you're not even in a party with them is just ridiculous.

Form a party that allows them to help you without spending *all* their time sitting on their ass so *you* can earn more exp/AN, and they might.

If SE really wanted to promote cooperation, they'd scrap the individual contribution system and give everyone the same exp/AN bonus based on the number of beastmen defeated and how long it took (faster = more exp for everyone). Then you'd see players behaving differently, I bet. But as long as the game makes players compete against each other for exp/AN, there's no sense blaming players for acting like they're competing with each other. They ARE, and it's SE's decision to make it that way.

RE melee healing: it's far, far, far easier for a mage to rest up MP through gear, food, and abilities than it is for a melee to rest HP.

Each MP is also worth about 4 HP through cures, more through regen. And for the same reason, sigil auto-refresh is far more significant than sigil auto-regen (really SE, it should be at least 3 HP/tick for sanction and sigil regens, maybe even 5. 1 is just not significant at all.)

On the other hand, you know what's even easier than that? Gaining TP by hitting things. You gain exp and AN at the same time (instead of missing out by resting). Then (with the right subjob) you could use some of that TP to keep yourself alive instead of throwing it all into getting more exp for yourself and leeching off someone else's (undercompensated) efforts to keep you alive.

Or you could get a subjob where you can rest your own MP if you're the one that needs them.

If your damage doesn't help someone else by contributing to their exp gain, then you have no right to demand they help you by keeping you in top damage-dealing condition when you refuse to do so yourself.

Mages also have a pool that's not as big at times as some melees (MNK, PLD, and most any job on a Galka, for example), so it's not quite as efficient to have them resting when they could be out there, helping defend the fort, with someone else providing some support.

Efficient for who? In a party, the whole party gains the same exp, but in Campaign that is emphatically not true. The basic question that the melees on this thread have yet to answer is: Why should a mage reduce their own exp to improve yours?

If exp and AN gain were shared between party members, I bet you'd see more people willing to form parties and keep their party members alive, un-enfeebled and even hasted. But they're not, so don't be surprised when self-sacrifice isn't the most popular option.

However, if you do so, you really do need to work together, and not just leech. Both mages and melee are guilty of this, I understand, but mages moreso than melee.

I'd say the reverse: it isn't the mages getting killed because they didn't come prepared (well, sometimes it is, but far more rarely), and when they do get killed they usually RR themselves. What do the melee contribute that is of any value? Dealing damage? The NPCs do that just fine.

I frequently fight as a melee - but I make efforts to be as self-sufficient as possible. Melees that don't are just trying to leech off someone else's efforts so that they can get more exp that (unlike an exp party) the supporter gets no share in. Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.

[Tsrwedge]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

/slap Richie

On the derail, if I'm near a battle, I'm usually actively seeking people that need cures. Can't always get them the cures cos it's such a cluster****, and people in my party do get priority.

Only time I'm not actively tabbing for cures is when I'm maintaining two or three Reposes. Sorry, but I need every single magic point I can get when I'm doing that, and taking two or three mobs out of the fight or defanging Vaa Oozu the Redolent takes priority in my mind. (BTW WHMs, Scorps are weak to light ^.~)

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

/also slap Richie

It doesn't help that any time I go to Jugner that I put up my flag, enter a /seacom and shout repeatedly for a campaign invite only to be completely ignored by everyone. And this is on Bard.

People are just retarded on Seraph, fact of life ; ;