New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Right, because ya know, it's ever so easy to stay alive when One-Eye is being kited around and smacking people for 400+ every 5 seconds, or RR whenever I need to.

I don't seem to have any problems staying alive, and I do Jugner campaign quite often. I don't know what your problem is.

[Truece]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

And, how long to spend /heal on, doing nothing to earn experience points after a raise or three which depletes MP?
Actually, let's turn this discussion around.
...
To those melees complaining about not getting cures: Move away, take a kneel, /heal on, so you can get your HP back.

It's what most mages have to do for MP at least some of the time, so there's no reason you can't bring hHP equipment and rest back whatever HP you lose. (Aren't there cookies just for that?) MP may be free, but so is HP. (With Sigil's hHP and auto regen, it's more practical than ever, too.)

No difference in Champaign; if the mages feel they are too busy or can't spare the MP at the moment, they have every right to wait until the condition improves or the battle ends. That is, if they even notice you in the chaos--send a polite /tell, and wait for your turn.

This is a great point. Mages are just about as useless without MP as melees are without HP. So, if a melee is near death, what is stopping them from disengaging from the mob, moving a safe distance away, and /heal-ing to get their HP back, the same way a Mage has to after raising someone? Why don't melee disengage when they're low on HP? Because they lose out on experience points, just like mages who have to recover their MP after cure-bombing/raising. Nobody wants to lose out like that.

When I'm engaged with a mob, I will throw a cure at someone who asks for it, but I'm not actively tabbing through all of the <stpc>'s looking for people to cure. Instead of curing everyone who needs it, I'd much rather take that time swinging and conserving my MP for when I need to reapply buffs/debuffs. As it is, my MP pool is severely limited when I'm geared for melee. On top of that, the experience point/AN rewards are just better for doing damage to a mob than they are for playing a back-line role.

Often, if I see someone fall to the mob that I'm fighting, I'll raise them as soon as that mob is dead. Also, between waves of attacks, I make it a point to run around looking for KO'd PCs to raise. I can't think of any reason why a job with raise wouldn't do this.

For all of you back-line mages, between waves is a great opportunity to get a performance evaluation, and then get a new tag and join back into the fight. This resets the reward caps which (potentially) allows for greater rewards overall.

Thing is, begging for cures in /say is obnoxious spam. When I have the ability to cure others in campaign, I actively toggle a <stpc> macro for cures as I'm fighting. Not only does this give me hate to transfer to my jug pet on BST or help me get hate if I intend to tank as another job, it helps others.

I guess you need to decide what is more annoying, asking in /say for a cure, or waiting for someone to raise you if you happen to get KO'd.

As you say, you look for the opportunity to take hate, then transfer it to your pet. Well, I also enjoy when a mob is beating on me, because I can take such little damage. But in order to keep that up, I need MP; MP which I won't have if I'm spamming cures on whomever has the mobs attention, just so I can get hate planted on me.

Additionally, no melee should have to sub WHM or DNC because... they're DDs. Damage is a part of the calculation in the points for Campaign and, last I checked, melees tend to do WAY more damage than RDMs do.

Is there a cap on the rewards for dealing damage to an enemy in Campaign? If not, then it's no wonder why all of the mages are doing their part to DD. The rewards you get for spamming cures and raises gets capped. So which is more worthwhile to the player, capping their rewards for heals or working toward an uncapped reward for dealing damage?

Addtionally, have you considered not everyone has the time to invest in levelling healer subs? I can go RNG and use Bloody Bolts, I don't sweat to spend gil, but most people don't want to do that either. I use them because I'm not gimping my RNG DD via sub no matter what the situation may be. I'm happy to support others on COR when I have a mage sub, but RNG will never touch /WHM or /DNC.

The fact that not everyone has time to level healer subs does not mean that I am now responsible for keeping them alive. If you come to an event unprepared, you've gotta be ready to accept the consequences. RNGs and THFs have bloody bolts to help, most other DD can benefit from /DNC. Everyone benefits from /WHM (66+) for reraise alone.

What an absurd statement. It's called The Allied Campaign for a reason; like almost everything else in the game, it's geared around team work. Soloing is one thing, you should be able to cover your own ass or don't do it. In a Campaign Battle, we're all allies here and should look out for one another.

But unless you're in a PT, soloing is exactly what you're doing. If a melee doesn't have anyone in a PT with them, how can they expect anyone else to be responsible for keeping them alive? It's like you say: 'you should be able to cover your own ass or don't do it.'

Honestly, how many times have any melee in Campaign sent a /tell to a mage asking to team up? In all of the campaigns that I have ever participated in, the number is a nice, fat zero. I will always group with linkshell mates if they're doing campaign at the same time as me, but never once has anyone asked me to group for campaign. Plus, when I do have others in a campaign party, I make it a priority to keep them alive as long as possible. I would do the same no matter who was in my party. But realistically, I'm not sure how many mages would accept such an offer. What does it hurt to ask?

Maybe it's time for an experiment. The next few times you enter a campaign battle, if you're a melee, ask a solo mage if they want to team up; likewise, if you're a mage, ask a solo melee. I'd be interested in seeing how often the mage says no versus the melee. It would also be interesting to see if the rewards change for the mage in those circumstances. As a mage, I wouldn't want a full-blown party with all of the xp/merit responsibilities, but I would welcome the opportunity to support one or two others with hastes/refreshes/cures.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

So, if a melee is near death, what is stopping them from disengaging from the mob, moving a safe distance away, and /heal-ing to get their HP back

In general, I don't because I know the mob is going to come after me again, I can't count the number of times I've disengaged from a mob to get a few much needed ticks of hp/mp only to have the mob come running up to me and start smacking me. After I have killed said mob though, I am more than happy to rest for hp/mp, or if I'm reasonably sure that I won't need to cast anything, just let the Auto Refresh get my mp back up.

And assuming no one is killing the Pixies, I'll run by a few for some fast hp.

[Ziero]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

This is a great point. Mages are just about as useless without MP as melees are without HP. So, if a melee is near death, what is stopping them from disengaging from the mob, moving a safe distance away, and /heal-ing to get their HP back, the same way a Mage has to after raising someone? Why don't melee disengage when they're low on HP? Because they lose out on experience points, just like mages who have to recover their MP after cure-bombing/raising. Nobody wants to lose out like that.

I rest all the time when I'm in campaign. Despite the fact it hurts just about every aspect of my job and takes 2-3 times as long to regain a decent HP level then it does for a mage to heal their MP. But it's when I'm fighting a mob, bouncing hate between me and another DD while mr full AF Whm is happily whacking away at it, and it hits me with an AoE or stray WS and I'm dropped to red, I can't just stop and rest.

And there's a big difference between soloing and campaign. That being the fact that when I solo, you're not smacking the same monster I am. As soon as you attack a mob I'm fighting, we're working together like it or not and it's in both of our best interests to act like it.

But honestly, I think the major problem here is that everyone is arguing the *extremes* and ignoring the median. The mages here all seem upset because they feel they're expected to raise/heal everyone while the melee are upset because they don't get *any* raises/cures. But those are the two extremes in this situation and no halfway decent player would ever encourage either scenario. No melee is asking mages to cure *everyone* who needs it and mages aren't saying they won't cure *some* people who need it.

All we're asking is that when there's 3-4 people on one mob, throw that poor tank some cures, a haste, something to help him keep that mobs attention so you *can* go and melee it to your hearts content.

[Coinspinner]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Until exp for Raise is balanced against the cast time and MP it's not worth doing mid-battle unless you're weakened or there's a lull in the fighting or you need every last man just to fend of the enemy. I go for fun and tend to focus on crowd control, healing, and Raise patrol. I wonder how much all that Tractoring of people out from under NMs gets me... can't be much either.

Anyway, campaign battle is just another activity in FFXI. Like anything else, you bring the appropriate subjob. Due to the way rewards for participating in it are doled out, it becomes a very selfish activity, and you generally have no one to rely on but yourself. Thus, /WHM for safety, /whatever for greater risk with a chance of greater rewards.

Don't have /WHM? Well, you are gimp. No big deal.. it's only campaign, nobody will laugh at you and post shots on forums of you lying dead beneath Dee Xalmo as /SAM with 6 others RRing next to you.

I'd like to /RDM to kite some of the NMs (lol "Swiftblad") but I tend to die often if I'm doing crowd control so I /WHM.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I wonder how much all that Tractoring of people out from under NMs gets me... can't be much either.

I wouldn't bother with tractor in Campaign. Accepting Tractor is like zoning, which makes you lose your allied tags and your reward with it.

If the player is smart, he won't accept Raise until the coast is clear and it's safe. If he isn't, then he'll die and hopefully will learn from his mistake sooner or later.

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I don't seem to have any problems staying alive, and I do Jugner campaign quite often. I don't know what your problem is.

Idiots training One-Eye and MPKing ppl with him (happens a lot for some reason)

Random BS of 4-6 counters in a row.

Mobs just randomly deciding to break off from whomever they were fighting and go to town on me. (Yet again happens with rather disturbing frequency...)


I mean shit, the other day I managed to pull hate on a mob that was being hit by at least 30 people while weakened. Wasn't even a WS, just normal swings. I'm like a living shit magnet



For the record, I don't demand anything. I /heal and try to stay alive but god help me there are just too many instances of random BS in one form or another (usually Cpt. AoE >_>) where I just can't get away, or will die saving some mage's life (Yes, I do tank whenever I can tyvm) and just end up lying there for 5 minutes.

I mean shit, the other day I was in a PT with two RDMs and after I died while tanking our mob (neither of them cured me) they just went on to lolmelee other mobs. Not so much as a thank you for keeping them safe, or a raise.

Is a little team spirit too much to ask for?


I don't know what it's like on your severs, but on Seraph there are sure are a lot of retards when it comes to Jugner. I mean honestly, kiting Cpt. AoE to a group of people who are /heal? Yeah, like that wasn't deliberate MPK...

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Well Malacite, those RDMs were fucking retards then. There's no other way to put it. Any RDM worth a damn, whether meleeing or not, will toss you cures and/or raise if they're in your party.

It makes me angry how many people disrespect RDM like that. This is why I don't play it much anymore, everyone and their sister has RDM 75 and 95% are total fail at it, which pisses me off to no end, and no one will say anything because they're RDMs. You'd think that would make me want to play it more to prove to people that there are RDMs worth a shit, but when someone already expects you to fail there's not much changing their mind. People are ignorant. And since so many RDMs are bad, you get automatically lumped into that "zomg bad player" category just for having the job leveled.

Excuse my mini-rant there, all I'm basically getting at are those are two RDMs who are giving all RDMs a bad name. Don't let it discourage you.

I don't know if talking about "roles" before you set out to do the battles is worthwhile ... I mean should you have to tell a mage that they're supposed to cure you when you're tanking? But you could try it ...

[Truece]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

For the record, I don't demand anything. I /heal and try to stay alive ...

I can't count the number of times I've disengaged from a mob to get a few much needed ticks of hp/mp only to have the mob come running up to me and start smacking me.

I rest all the time when I'm in campaign. Despite the fact it hurts just about every aspect of my job and takes 2-3 times as long to regain a decent HP level then it does for a mage to heal their MP.

It hurts everyone equally to have to /heal during campaign, I guess I just didn't realize resting for HP during a campaign battle was so commonplace amongst melee. I figured it only happened while they were weakened.

There are items/food out there with hHP on it, and I imagine it's cheaper than the hMP gear that mages buy. Sure, you miss out on HP's non-existant equivalent of Clear Mind (which, I believe, caps at 24hMP), but if you could increase your base hMP by 15-20 through gear and food, would it be worth it to wear while resting? Every little bit adds up very quickly.

[Ziero]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

It hurts everyone equally to have to /heal during campaign, I guess I just didn't realize resting for HP during a campaign battle was so commonplace amongst melee. I figured it only happened while they were weakened.

There are items/food out there with hHP on it, and I imagine it's cheaper than the hMP gear that mages buy. Sure, you miss out on HP's non-existant equivalent of Clear Mind (which, I believe, caps at 24hMP), but if you could increase your base hMP by 15-20 through gear and food, would it be worth it to wear while resting? Every little bit adds up very quickly.

No actually, there is a LOT more options for hMP then there is for hHP, they're also much cheaper, easier to obtain and far more potent, on top of having far more Refresh items available while having JTs to increase it and having smaller pools to refill. Mages have more hMP on a single, common item that they all have anyway then Melee can get in total through gear. And when melees rest, outside of signet, they lose their TP which helps them do their sole, solitary job.

But again, people constantly think of the extremes when they debate a point. Those melees who do /rest for HP back are often the ones who are taking the hits from mobs while mages melee the same target and disregard all other abilities. But in the end, it would be more beneficial for *everyone* involved in that situation if the mages *did* heal. It would allow those melees to keep tanking so that mage can keep meleeing while gaining *extra* points for healing.

But the fact is, the more melees that have to rest, the less mobs that will be tanked. And though mages can hold their own in some Campaign fronts, the mobs in many of these places will just steamroll most of them without support.

[Callisto]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I know I'm late to the party, busy day and I don't feel like quoting people so here's my points!

Seige Turrets: F@#$ing awesome. Can't wait to see them. Send moar Behemoths to Jugner plz.

RDM in campaign: Why don't I cure you? Because it's near impossible to see who is getting bludgeoned when there's 50 players and 30 NPCs on one mob, much less target them in time before they die.

Why don't I raise you? Because after you went DD happy and got yourself killed, that left someone who actually brought a job with survivability and who used common sense to not get one shotted nearly alone kiting/tanking (insert beastmen NM or Jagibond's Rapemachine here). I'm a little busy at the moment, I'll get to you after either myself or the NPCs finish off the NM.

You want to melee all you want and not worry about dying? Sub DNC or WHM and stfu.

Beastmen Strongholds: Pretty cool, hoping there's more to do in them than just Campaign Battle.

[Carter]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

*shock* Nothing new for low level casual players...like me

Carter.

[Mhurron]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

*shock* Nothing new for low level casual players...like me

Carter.

You might want to look into something called 'the whole game that was already released.'

[Murphie]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

*shock* Nothing new for low level casual players...like me

Carter.

That's because you already have tons of content that you haven't explored. Why on earth would you need more?

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

It makes me angry how many people disrespect RDM like that. This is why I don't play it much anymore, everyone and their sister has RDM 75 and 95% are total fail at it, which pisses me off to no end, and no one will say anything because they're RDMs. You'd think that would make me want to play it more to prove to people that there are RDMs worth a shit, but when someone already expects you to fail there's not much changing their mind. People are ignorant. And since so many RDMs are bad, you get automatically lumped into that "zomg bad player" category just for having the job leveled.

Welcome to DRG and DRK ; ;

... and I greatly resent the "DD Happy" remark. Occasionally I'll try to solo mobs with /DNC, but for the most part I run with the group dynamis-style and try to mow down the mobs one-by-one. You make it sound like we're not watching our HP when I sure as hell am. Soon as I see those 400-600 Battle Dances flying my way I run like hell. Let the meleetards die to him >_> (you're not completely wrong; there are ppl go do DD happy but not all of us)