New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

[Vyuru]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Siege Turret

Available only to the Beastman Confederate are siege turrets, which will appear when an army's technological means reach an incredibly high level while attacking an area not under their influence.
Capable of repeated long-range attacks, in addition to spawning ferocious enemies, the siege turret is widely considered to be the Beastman Confederate's most powerful and deadly weapon.

Oh god, just keep them from ever getting that.

I don't wanna be one shotted by some uber Warmachine on a sugar buzz x.x

[Coinspinner]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Oh man, I can't wait to watch heaps of people die to the siege engine.

[Truece]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Actually it's more the fact that Rdms and Whm do nothing *but* melee in these that upsets people. Much like BBQ, I've been healed and raised by more Plds, Drks, Blus, Drg, hell even Pups and Mnks, then I've been healed/raised by random mages. There's a reason nearly half the melee who go to these things sub /dnc and that's because no one will heal them otherwise.

What is the problem with this? If you had a RDM or WHM in a campaign party, I can see how it would get annoying, but if a RDM or WHM is doing campaign solo, who cares if they cure or not? That's the beauty of soloing, you've only gotta look out for number 1.

Consider the following: if you happened to be skilling up somewhere where a mage/NIN was also skilling up solo, would you expect them to keep an eye on your health if you're fighting different mobs? Is it their responsibility to cure/raise you then?

In any case, if a mage is in my PT and has the ability to cure, I would expect it of them when necessary. But when a mage is not in a PT I don't see how they have any responsibility to anyone but themselves.

Now if this were the norm for these types of events it'd be different, but Besiege has been around for almost 2 years now and you can't take 2 steps without random cures or spend more then 5 minutes dead without someone trying to raise you.

Besieged is a bit different. In my experience, as a 75 WHM or RDM, my melee accuracy and damage is so pathetic in besieged, it's not worth my time to even try (actually, I can spend a full hour of besieged swinging and missing, and still cap my reward, it's just less satisfying). So, I spend my time healing/buffing other PCs and NPCs.

Also consider that there are a lot of lower level people participating in besieged who are just trying to get some free experience points, and the only way they can do that is to spam cures as fast as they can to maximize their rewards (I'm looking at you, Mr. 40 WAR/WHM spamming Cure I & II >< ). Granted, they can also do that in campaign, but the rewards are far less appealing.

The problem lies in the exp gain system with Campaign as it doesn't reward healing as much as it should.

This is exactly the problem. Healers aren't rewarded nearly enough to make it worthwhile to spend their time and MP raising others. Couple that with the fact that we (mages) can actually melee and do decent damage to campaign mobs, and now you've got lots of mages who finally have a chance to hit mobs and not worry about xp loss, healing duties, etc.

I've spent a lot of time of main healing and raising. Now, I'm going to take the chance to swing my club, staff, or sword and get rewarded for it. If I see someone KO'd when I'm done with the mob that I'm fighting, sure I'll throw a raise when the timer and MP allows. However, if either of those conditions aren't met; you're on your own. If you show up to a campaign battle without a means of healing or raising yourself (build a PT with a healer, bring items/meds, or /WHM), then be prepared to spend time eating dirt.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Nope, this won't change that. I also fully expect players to intentionally let any of the "Belfrys" the alliance gains be completely destroyed.

Given what "spoil sports" the allied NPCs tend to be, I wouldn't shed a single tear if that's what happens.

I was in a Jugner battle yesterday where the Silver Fox Archers took off southwards to meet Gwajboj and his entourage out where a bunch of Decrepit Gnoles hang out. Very few players made it out to the actual battle to even be able to participate. And quite a few of them simply got killed by a random roaming Gnole.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

I had a really long response to this thread typed up, and my browser crashed upon attempting to post it, gotta love Vista and its reliability for running programs. >.<

Basically what I said was that I go to Campaign on WHM and RDM and I do melee, I raise more than I cure, but chances are if you need a cure I don't know it. I'm not standing there randomly tabbing around the zone to see who needs cured and who doesn't, especially when locked onto a mob. If I'm between mobs and I see someone who needs cured while I'm looking for another mob, yes, I will cure them. Most of the times a simple, {Cure} {Can I have it?} will help let me know that you need cured. If I could see everyone's HP this wouldn't be an issue, but like I said, I'm not going to sit there every 5 minutes tabbing around to every person in the zone to see if they need cured.

Also, on RDM I'm pretty busy, I find Campaign is a good time to actually use that enfeebling magic skill I'm so fond of, and I'm doing all I can to make the mob a total retard with my enfeebs, and boy do I love my enspells. ^^ On WHM, I'll look out for status effects (they do come up bright yellow on my screen) and when I see them, I'll remove them.

Want to know what's fun? Soloing a mob on RDM/BLM. :p

Anyway, Campaign is fun, it's something I do for fun, not to sit in the backline and be a curebot. If I wanted to do that, I'd join a zomgmeripo. But if you're in dire need of a cure and I know about it I will cure you.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

This is exactly the problem. Healers aren't rewarded nearly enough to make it worthwhile to spend their time and MP raising others.

During a fight, then yes, I would agree with you. However, and while it is a bit random, it's been my experience that there is typically about a 5 minute wait inbetween one wave being killed off and the next wave approaching. One of those Whm or Rdm could toss out a raise or two instead of just standing on the dead bodies.

Also, reraise from the forts is not always an option. I do alot of fights either in areas that another nation controlls and I cannot get a reraise item from the fort then. Or else the supplies of that area are depleted, and can't get one there either.

Normally what I do is hit up either Saratu or Fort Kura-whatever during a fight, grab a RR item, then jump to another fight. But if I die during that, it may not be possible to grab another RR item.

So while I agree with you that you should always try to have RR up, it may not be so easy all the time.

In any case, if a mage is in my PT and has the ability to cure, I would expect it of them when necessary. But when a mage is not in a PT I don't see how they have any responsibility to anyone but themselves.

I agree with you with the exception of NMs. Alot of times I'll see some kind of tank (normally pld/nin) tank the NM so that the other people don't die. If you are some kind of mage meleeing on said NM, then I would kind of expect you to at least think, hey, maybe that guy needs a cure tossed his way.

Of course, with all the people clustered around the NM that is probably easier said than done.

Which is why you leave the NMs for the NPCs you silly peoples

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

If I'm between mobs and I see someone who needs cured while I'm looking for another mob, yes, I will cure them. Most of the times a simple, {Cure} {Can I have it?} will help let me know that you need cured. If I could see everyone's HP this wouldn't be an issue, but like I said, I'm not going to sit there every 5 minutes tabbing around to every person in the zone to see if they need cured.

Thing is, begging for cures in /say is obnoxious spam. When I have the ability to cure others in campaign, I actively toggle a <stpc> macro for cures as I'm fighting. Not only does this give me hate to transfer to my jug pet on BST or help me get hate if I intend to tank as another job, it helps others.

[Olorin401]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

This has the makings of a truly fantastic update, and it'll draw people into the new (old) areas too.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

• In crowded Campaign Battles, sometimes dead bodies are not easy to see, and mages may be busy with other things.
• In the confusion of battles where two dozen people are hitting on the critter, how are the mages supposed to know who needs cures critically?
• If there's AoE, the mages may be busy trying to put Stoneskin back up and cure themselves.
• Mages also tend to filter out damage received by people outside of party/alliance from log, and I know I'm not the only person who turn off all sorts of on-screen effects trying to keep the frame rate up.

Lot's of factors make curing and raising people difficult in campaign battles--the biggest of which is that we mages don't see your HP bar, as Truece indicated, unless we're in party with you.

Instead of complaining about it, go /WHM or /DNC. Or, build a Campaign party, and invite some SCH, RDM, or WHM.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Itazura hit the nail on the head, really. I filter damn near everything that isn't directly related to me or my party. If you get hit and need a cure, you're gonna have to tell me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

In crowded Campaign Battles, sometimes dead bodies are not easy to see, and mages may be busy with other things.

Most of the time, the dead lay out in the open, you'd have to have pretty crap settings on your PC not to see them. I can see them just fine on my PS2.

In the confusion of battles where two dozen people are hitting on the critter, how are the mages supposed to know who needs cures critically?

<stpc> is difficult? Its in all my Cure macros.

Instead of complaining about it, go /WHM or /DNC. Or, build a Campaign party, and invite some SCH, RDM, or WHM.

You may be oblivous to this, but most people don't form parties at all because they don't need to form PTs for campaign - Even RDMs. Yeah, it puts an HP bar in your list to see if they do, but its not any less difficult to have <stpc> for Cures and regularly toggle while you wail on something.

Additionally, no melee should have to sub WHM or DNC because... they're DDs. Damage is a part of the calculation in the points for Campaign and, last I checked, melees tend to do WAY more damage than RDMs do. Addtionally, have you considered not everyone has the time to invest in levelling healer subs? I can go RNG and use Bloody Bolts, I don't sweat to spend gil, but most people don't want to do that either. I use them because I'm not gimping my RNG DD via sub no matter what the situation may be. I'm happy to support others on COR when I have a mage sub, but RNG will never touch /WHM or /DNC.

BST just goes /WHM because that's what comes with the soloing anyway, just recently got 66 so I can RR. I get Sigil Refresh, slap on my Gaudy if I need to and pitch in cures.

[Aksannyi]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

And if all my Cure macros swap in my Apollo's staff. If I'm hitting the mob, I don't really want to swap weapons now, do I?

Yeah, I could make more macros which just cure people without changing equips, but I shouldn't have to. If someone wants/needs cured badly enough, they will ask for it.

[greeneyesj]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

If you want mages to fullfill the job that you think they should do then you need xp party.

If you want cures and raises as soon as you need them in Campaign:

/sea all Magejobofchoice inv
/t Wantedmage {Hello!}{Campaign}{Party}{Do you need it?}

I do backline in campaign, but still even trying to tab through the <stpc> is a pain, so I would not expect a mage actually fighting to even try to attempt trying. I have to agree, bring your own mage with you or /whm, /dnc

[Ziero]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

See, as far as I'm concerned, if there's two dozen people on an AoE spamming mob and you're not curing everyone, that's totally understandable. If everyone is spread out around the fort and you're in some corner alone not curing others, again, that makes sense. It's when there's three people on one mob, one of whom is trying their best to tank and stay alive, and the whm is just whacking away at that very same mob without even looking at the one holding hate that I see a problem.

I have gone through *many* Campaign fights without a single cure, yet tank mobs that other mages happily wail away at...until I die and they're next on the hate list. And then, after we're both dead, they get up with their RR and go trotting off to the next mob while I wait for the Pld/Dnc to notice me.

When I'm on thf, I don't TA onto mages and when I'm on War I'll voke to keep mobs from eating them alive. A little cure now and then would be nice, and I don't think it's too much to ask.

Though again, healing based exp gain needs to be adjusted.

[Malacite]

Re: New Campaign Elements (02/07/2008)

Consider the following: if you happened to be skilling up somewhere where a mage/NIN was also skilling up solo, would you expect them to keep an eye on your health if you're fighting different mobs? Is it their responsibility to cure/raise you then?

What an absurd statement. It's called The Allied Campaign for a reason; like almost everything else in the game, it's geared around team work. Soloing is one thing, you should be able to cover your own ass or don't do it. In a Campaign Battle, we're all allies here and should look out for one another.

SE should considerably boost the EXP and AN for support actions, so that mages can melee to supplement their EXP as opposed to shrugging off these duties in favor of high personal EXP/AN. They really ought to know at this point that good intentions just aren't enough these days. You (unfortunately) need to give people a reason to help one another. It's shameful but it's true.

EDIT:

Given what "spoil sports" the allied NPCs tend to be, I wouldn't shed a single tear if that's what happens.

I was in a Jugner battle yesterday where the Silver Fox Archers took off southwards to meet Gwajboj and his entourage out where a bunch of Decrepit Gnoles hang out. Very few players made it out to the actual battle to even be able to participate. And quite a few of them simply got killed by a random roaming Gnole.

Again with the negative "me me me" attitude. Why not have people suggest to SE that they change this? For all we know they may be planning to do just that. I admit it's irritating, but I for one rather like having the NPCs around when Cpt. AoE or the Jank Machine come out to play.