Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

WAR will NEVER tank with its face (acceptably) unless its face gets a powerful form of damage reduction native to the job, that doesn't castrate its ability to do damage.

That's the problem with FFXI, people think damage mitigation is tanking.

Its not.

Should add the en-spell damage to the hit which causes it; really don't need another line in the overcrowded log. Itazura hits critter for 32 damage; additional effect adds 19 damage.

Isn't that what Gallant's Roll is for? If a COR were to Roll it under the conditions you've suggested, the roll would be completely worthless. Considering it just recenty got situationally useful, I'd like to keep it that way instead of it going back to lolRoll.

EDIT: Well, guess not totally worthless, I thought you meant Spikes for some reason, not Enspell. Still, I guess I just don't like the sound of anything kinda taking away from Gallant's Roll seeing how little it gets used already >.>;

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

I second that. Same for Guard. Guard! The damage taken by Itazura is reduced to 11.

Should add the en-spell damage to the hit which causes it; really don't need another line in the overcrowded log. Itazura hits critter for 32 damage; additional effect adds 19 damage.

Yeah, forgot about Guard too. I don't mind the Additional effect thing too much, it'll probably still end up adding a line when the message becomes so long it.

That's the problem with FFXI, people think damage mitigation is tanking.

Enlighten me.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

That's the problem with FFXI, people think damage mitigation is tanking.

Its not.

Tanking is damage mitigation, enmity control, and healing concentration.

Enmity control means focus (most of) the enemy damage to the tanks to limit damage to the party/alliance, and these tanks inevitably are those players/jobs able to soak up damage without dying too fast--hence, damage mitigation. By doing so, healers can concentrate the curing to the tanks, to conserve MP and able to do a better job knowing where to focus their attention.

If you mean damage mitigation isn't the whole of tanking, I'd agree with you, but if you mean damage mitigation isn't a big part of tanking, I'd strongly disagree. Take Utsusemi away from NIN or Shield/Cure/Flash from PLD, and they would not be tanks.

EDIT: Well, guess not totally worthless, I thought you meant Spikes for some reason, not Enspell. Still, I guess I just don't like the sound of anything kinda taking away from Gallant's Roll seeing how little it gets used already >.>;

Was talking about en-spell damage off of my melee hits, yes.

Have seen COR in party a total of once since my LS's COR left the game. He never did finish telling me what all his rolls do. And, no, I don't want to the COR to "sound" less useful--just the "buff" messages to be condensed a little. Same for the Bar-ra, AoE songs, Thundaga III's, etc. Same info, less space, that's all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Enlighten me.

Is there a need?

Tanking is, simply put, is holding mob hate through damage or other means of enmity building. /NIN mitigates damage, it doens't do much for generating more hate. Additionally, just like taking hits, losing shadows diminishes hate.

But tanking isn't just a solo effort, but a team one as well. People using their skills and abilities to keep the focus on the tank. Hasting the tank, SATA, buffing attack all go into it.

But so does holding back a little, which is a foreign concept to most melee.

The misconception is that tanking is only damage mitigation and that's held by a lot of the community. Another misconception comes from melees, thinking tanking is a complete solo effort and this is somewhat unfortunately reinforced by the dumbed down nature of ToA camps.

Fact is, WAR became 3rd rate tank in the eyes of the community due to RoZ introducing really ramped up mobs and while the ones in ToA were a bit weaker in defense than thier RoZ/CoP predeccessors. Just like the RNGs before them, the community lets WAR be what it is because WAR is a means for other people to get fast merits, just as RDM and BRD are such.

I'll tell you right now as a 75 RNG who levelled BRD in the thick of Arrowburn most of those RNGs were not gilbuyers or big spenders on the job, they were gimped beyond all belief, using scorpion arrows in full AF, more often than not. They exploited the fact that Sidewinder and Slugshot ignored mob defense entirely.

And we let them, didn't we?

Fast-forward to ToA, same shit, different job. WAR becomes the "premire" DD (I still question that) and we get all these gimped WARs doing great damage because everyone discovered something else those RNG knew - they fought weaker mobs to deal bigger damage and gain EXP more quickly. WAR and MNK rise from the ashes, but those ToA generation WARs don't accept one role - tanking - because why, kids?

Because we let them.

We can point out dozens of other reasons if we so desire, but the fact is, we let them get out of it even though they're the job with the most basic tanking tools. Some things in this game come to be because we allow things to be a means to an end, not just because of statistics.

I think SE has realized simply updating SAM as a sub wasn't enough to change things for WAR, I think a lot of the changes we've seen to main jobs that came just before WotG release are some glimpses into what we can expect for other jobs. But they've expressed they're not statisfied with the predominance of /NIN and /WHM as subjobs.

I think the Oct 2006 SAM update was just the tip of the iceberg for what SE plans to do, I don't think DNC and SCH were the end the work, I think were gonna see quite a few more subjob changes. SE also said they're looking to push some jobs toward tanking, rather than make new jobs to take on that role.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

My bold prediction: March 2nd will roll around and players will complain that SE is late on their "promised" early March update.

[Malacite]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

>. > I'd be happy if they boosted guard's activation rate the way they did with shield. I mean hell, why should WAR be the only job to get boosted for tanking? MNK's got all that HP and pyscho DoT, why not allow them to actually oh, I don't know, fight like a Martial Artist would? Guarding, Evading and Countering seems like a good combo if it actually worked.

Oh, and I second the notion for Guard/Shield Block chat logs.


So far the only things we know we're getting for sure are the new spells for BLU and COR since this was promised @ fan fest (they said they'd come in the 1st update of 2008 and here we are)


Though to be perfectly honest, I'd be happy if I got nothing but that SMN update that SE's been dangling over our heads for years. It's the only job that's still fundamentally broken and needs a complete overhaul.


Oh yeah, and here's to hoping for the other fan fest tweaks. I may yet pick up BRD again if SE comes through with those promises of new spells and single-target casting (I outright refuse to PT with PLD on BRD until SE implements this. Refreshing them is such a stupid chore I can't wait for SE to allow us to single-target ballad.) No more having to worry about overwriting the melee's buffs, or accidentally hitting the mages with Minuet when I go to buff the RNGs.

[Karinya]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Tanking is damage mitigation, enmity control, and healing concentration.

Well, two out of three ain't bad. Healing concentration is a weakness, not a strength. The most MP efficient heals are regens (you can have one per party member, so more people getting hurt = more people regenning = less need to use less-efficient Cures) and curagas/Healing Breeze (which are only efficient if multiple people are hurt). Some non-MP-based heals (Paeon, Samba, the AoE Waltz) also benefit from having multiple people to heal.

If the party takes the same total damage, they're *better* off having it spread over multiple people. Shadows do the same thing only more so - the same number of swings produce fewer actual hits that do HP damage when they're spread over a bunch of utsuspammers rather than focused on one tank. (And that effect is even strong enough to make up for the fact that some of the HP hits that do get through get through on DDs who are not equipped - literally - to take the hits.)

This is one reason tanks are now considered a liability in high level exp/merit.

Enmity control means focus (most of) the enemy damage to the tanks to limit damage to the party/alliance, and these tanks inevitably are those players/jobs able to soak up damage without dying too fast--hence, damage mitigation. By doing so, healers can concentrate the curing to the tanks, to conserve MP and able to do a better job knowing where to focus their attention.

See above. Concentrating the curing makes it *less* efficient. If your healers can't pay attention to more than one person taking damage, get more competent healers.

Damage mitigation does have a role, but with the highly effective, subbable Utsu:Ni, anyone can have godlike damage mitigation - at least for ~10 out of every 45 seconds.

Traditional tanking has been eclipsed - even destroyed - by measures originally introduced (IMO) to reduce the pain of AoEs, occasional hate slipping, and long pulls where the puller might take a few swings before they get back to camp and the tank takes over. They're so efficient that even uncontrolled hate bouncing is often better than stability, and controlled, intelligent hate bouncing is WAY better than stability.

What, other than a massive nerf to (at least subbed) Utsusemi, could change that and make it *profitable* to have most of your monster's swings be on the same person again? I dunno. If DDs don't get hit hard from the first swing - and right now they don't get hit *at all* until the fourth, or even the seventh - then there's no incentive for the party to want them not to take hate, or to invite someone who is "better" at taking hits (how do you take less than no damage? Or pay less than 0 MP for the privilege?).

If you mean damage mitigation isn't the whole of tanking, I'd agree with you, but if you mean damage mitigation isn't a big part of tanking, I'd strongly disagree. Take Utsusemi away from NIN or Shield/Cure/Flash from PLD, and they would not be tanks.

Well, PLD might still be. Take away those things and PLD still has the best DEF in the game (narrowly edging out WAR because of their additional Def Bonus traits) and great access to enmity gear. They'd come up a little short in hate holding without their magic - but every other job except WAR would do worse, so I think they'd be at least somewhat accepted.

So what happens if you give WAR waltzes on top of the damage mitigation and hate holding tools they already have? Why don't we see a new wave of WAR/DNC tanks? The job that gets Double Attack natively surely shouldn't be hurting for TP to power dances, and unlike main DNC, they have *heavy* armor, shields and the skill to use them (read: good damage mitigation built right in to the job)... yet, very few WAR are willing to experiment with subjobs other than /NIN, even after someone else has already proved them effective.


Oh well. Judging from the picture we can probably expect at least AF quest lines for DNC and SCH, and northlands [S] (probably also beastman strongholds [S]). That'll give us something to do that isn't merit, and therefore, where the balance problems of merit right now (i.e. for the last year or 2) aren't necessarily so apparent.

[Malacite]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Actually, on that note I'd like to say that /DNC is a very powerful sub for tanking. I use it religiously now for campaign battles, and it's especially broken on SAM with my Soboro and Meditate.

In the mean time, I just hope that new counter attack WAR may be getting is subable and works/stacks with Counter and Counter Gear.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

I'm actually keen on levelling PLD or WAR after my DNC sub is under raps and sitting pretty at 50, ready to quest the AF. I've been rather interested since Selphiie showed the PLD/DNC combo off to me.

Thing is, people are set in thier ways. They see WAR seeking, they want WAR/NIN and they don't want it tanking. But given DNC's design, the WAR would be putting cures into himself and the PT with no concerns about needing MP. Though maybe a WAR/DNC would wish to favor a lower delay weapon?

To be fair, /DNC is shaking some jobs off /NIN reliance, but its gonna take a little more updating to various mains and subs before we really start seeing the dependancy on /NIN fade.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Well, two out of three ain't bad. Healing concentration is a weakness, not a strength. The most MP efficient heals are regens (you can have one per party member, so more people getting hurt = more people regenning = less need to use less-efficient Cures) and curagas/Healing Breeze (which are only efficient if multiple people are hurt). Some non-MP-based heals (Paeon, Samba, the AoE Waltz) also benefit from having multiple people to heal.

>_>

If we're talking about hits soft enough that no direct cures would be urgently needed, sure, spread'em out--it's the "idea" way for WS spam parties.

No tank needed, either, so don't bother to analyzing how tanking work in that situation--call it 0 out of 0 instead of 2 out three.

When hits hurt enough to matter, so do cures. That's when it's much nicer for the healers to have one person to focus on, so the experience on RDM and WHM inform me.

Traditional tanking has been eclipsed - even destroyed - by measures originally introduced (IMO) to reduce the pain of AoEs, occasional hate slipping, and long pulls where the puller might take a few swings before they get back to camp and the tank takes over. They're so efficient that even uncontrolled hate bouncing is often better than stability, and controlled, intelligent hate bouncing is WAY better than stability.

It sounds easier than it actually is; I've seen mid level parties try this, often with disastrous results. Frankly, it's only employed successfully in my experience only in merit parties--and not always so successful. One death or two death easily can kill off any advantage to the "no tank" efficiency. (Pun intended.)

Actually, a /NIN Utsusemi nerf wouldn't be too bad; make Ichi go down to two copy images instead, like Ni is three from /NIN would make sense enough.

Well, PLD might still be. Take away those things and PLD still has the best DEF in the game (narrowly edging out WAR because of their additional Def Bonus traits) and great access to enmity gear. They'd come up a little short in hate holding without their magic - but every other job except WAR would do worse, so I think they'd be at least somewhat accepted.

You go ahead try to tank without Flash and Cure. I'll pass.

[Pteryx]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

What I think we will see this update:

A new batch of WotG missions, past beastman strongholds intended as new merit camps but too link-prone to be useful as such, SCH and DNC AF, Quick Draw charges, SCH and DNC rolls, new BLU spells, the PLD shield-block-reflect spell, the new WHM and BLM teleports and warps.

What I think we may see this update:

The BRD single-target JA, the SMN recover-MP-with-spirit-that-matches-day ability, the WAR Counter Plus ability, the Sneak ninjutsu, the SAM WS-with-100-TP ability (subbable), the new DRG wyvern damage resistance, adjustments to formulas that fall apart at the top due to the experience of attempting to beat AV, past Northlands, Pankration-WotG interaction fixes.

What I think we won't see yet:

The promised RDM "melee spells", anything that actually makes a tank out of WAR, any comprehensive fix to SMN, a universal improvement of skillchain accuracy, SCH's new defensive ability, DRK's new spells, help for THF.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

What I think we won't see yet:

The promised RDM "melee spells", anything that actually makes a tank out of WAR, any comprehensive fix to SMN, a universal improvement of skillchain accuracy, SCH's new defensive ability, DRK's new spells, help for THF.

^_^;; I recently shepherded some LS members and friends through CoP. For the Ix’zdei pot fight (CoP 8.3), the group's normal tank person opted to tank on WAR/NIN. And, yes, it worked fine.

WAR is a tanking job, I think. Maybe?

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

BBQ: Ok, good, just making sure we're on the same page. I mean, maybe I took it the wrong way but you did basically imply I don't know what tanking is.

I know about the three aspects of tanking (holding hate, damage mitigation, killing the mob) but out of those three what WAR needs is damage mitigation. You said it yourself, the job already has the basic tanking tools and it already has damage potential. As a matter of fact, when I said that it needs a form of damage mitigation that doesn't gimp its damage output it should've been fairly obvious that I said it because gimping WAR's damage the way Defender does kills off both kill speed and hate holding.

Even against ToAU mobs a WAR would be a poor tank. It doesn't matter how easy the mobs are, a standard party still wastes too much MP to chain indefinitely with a NIN or PLD, and a WAR will waste even more MP. Even if you tack on a Size 3 shield on a WAR, it's still 38 Defense behind PLD on Defense Bonuses alone (add probably 5 more due to really shitty VIT.) And a PLD on sushi gets hit hard. Even if we ignore that, PLDs easily evade 1/4-1/3 of all incoming hits thanks to Flash, and can also cure back damage taken furthering the gap in damage. If they use a Great Axe they could Weapon Break, but they'd probably be better off killing the mob faster with Shield Break or Armor Break anyways.

/DNC seems good on paper but the fact that you can no longer WS really, really, really hurts it. That's not to say I'm opposed to the idea, I still want to see real results in an actual party, but I'm afraid it'll just end up not being THAT good over the alternatives. /BLU seemed GREAT on paper but no one seemed to catch on.

Either way this is all assuming SE wants WARs to actually take hits. Fact of the matter is two WAR/NINs will get the job done faaaaaaaar better (broken Utsu protection, Shield Break + Armor Break which pretty much turns ANY mob into something of sub-ToAU standards, high damage output and hate holding.) And I think that's fine.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

What I think we won't see yet:

The promised RDM "melee spells", anything that actually makes a tank out of WAR, any comprehensive fix to SMN, a universal improvement of skillchain accuracy, SCH's new defensive ability, DRK's new spells, help for THF.

The adjustments to SCH? They were talking putting Blink and SS under sub very recently, I think that's a rather high priority update at the moment, seeing as many players invested in the job so early.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

/BLU seemed GREAT on paper but no one seemed to catch on.

I tanked quite a bit on BLU on the way to Lv.40. The summary of that experience: As NIN and PLD tanking get stronger and stronger marching toward Lv.40, BLU becomes weaker and weaker for tanking.

BLU/WAR tanking seems to missing some additional form of damage mitigation to make it work well past Lv.40. It's still doable, IMO, especially for those with tanking experience, but I don't recommend it. Not unless SE adds some new, stackable damage mitigation spell, and/or shield and native shield skill.

Given that's the case for BLU/WAR, I'm not sure why WAR/BLU would work out that much better. (Proc'ing Headbutt pretty much cancels out the advantage of better armor on WAR/BLU, I'd imagine, and BLU has much better "damage on demand" capability for generating enmity.)