Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Well, it sure beats going WAR/MNK, and WAR brings Shield Break to the table so fights don't last nearly as long and the WAR doesn't even have to touch sushi. The ability to eat meat, stacked with A-ranked STR, the 4 STR->3 Attack conversion for two-handed weapons, and the +10 Attack from Attack Bonus would give WAR/BLU a MUCH higher damage output, without having to use MP at all. And Double Attack.

[Pteryx]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

The adjustments to SCH? They were talking putting Blink and SS under sub very recently, I think that's a rather high priority update at the moment, seeing as many players invested in the job so early.

Talking about it recently does not necessarily mean doing it right away. Note that they also did not necessarily say Blink and Stoneskin; everyone's just reading it that way because they want it to be so. For all we know this is some spell that turns spike damage on the caster into DoT or something; indeed, my personal suspicion is that they're going to make something new, something that may not necessarily take into account that where /SCH really falls apart is as a solo sub. Regardless of how it's actually being approached, they were vague, and vagueness usually indicates a wait when it comes to SE. -- Pteryx

[Celeal]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Well, it sure beats going WAR/MNK, and WAR brings Shield Break to the table so fights don't last nearly as long and the WAR doesn't even have to touch sushi. The ability to eat meat, stacked with A-ranked STR, the 4 STR->3 Attack conversion for two-handed weapons, and the +10 Attack from Attack Bonus would give WAR/BLU a MUCH higher damage output, without having to use MP at all. And Double Attack.

But don't forget DEF+/VIT+ work only up to a certain point. Beyond that *point*, it is kinda broken.

[Armando]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

That's why you use Berserk too ;o I didn't mention it because BLU/WAR can do the same past 30.

[Celeal]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

I am not sure about WAR/BLU tanking from mid to high levels. From my last attempt on WAR/MNK tanking in exp. party, at level 58 in Gustval Tunnel at Goblin + Robber Crab camp, near the NM Goblin spawn area: tanked 1+ hours including downtime from few death, until a few member left and the party leader can find a NIN/WAR tank + party re-grouped....
I have tried:
1) DEF+ food ~ mix DD/tank gear
2) Defender ~ DD gear/food
3) tried both G.Axe and Shield + Axe, all the WS Break that i can use.

My conclusion is, even though a WAR can have enough defense and hate control, in terms of HP recovery, WAR tank + one healer cannot match with PLD + healer or NIN tank + healer.

Note: that was before ToAU was released... the old CoP days, when DRK/THF spinning slash + SC + MB was hot.

DEF+ alone cannot slow down the bleeding fast enough.

[Malacite]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

We damn well better get that skillchain update already. Lower those damn resist rates SE!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Talking about it recently does not necessarily mean doing it right away. Note that they also did not necessarily say Blink and Stoneskin; everyone's just reading it that way because they want it to be so. For all we know this is some spell that turns spike damage on the caster into DoT or something; indeed, my personal suspicion is that they're going to make something new, something that may not necessarily take into account that where /SCH really falls apart is as a solo sub. Regardless of how it's actually being approached, they were vague, and vagueness usually indicates a wait when it comes to SE. -- Pteryx

Its faster to say you're just cynical.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

My conclusion is, even though a WAR can have enough defense and hate control, in terms of HP recovery, WAR tank + one healer cannot match with PLD + healer or NIN tank + healer.

I don't think WAR is meant to match the other two tank jobs in that manner. The way I've always looked at it:
WAR tank + extra healer = PLD + extra DD = NIN + extra support (that extra support being someone to help get shadows back up pre-37, or someone to plant extra hate on the NIN with TA post-37).

[Celeal]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

I don't think WAR is meant to match the other two tank jobs in that manner. The way I've always looked at it:
WAR tank + extra healer = PLD + extra DD = NIN + extra support (that extra support being someone to help get shadows back up pre-37, or someone to plant extra hate on the NIN with TA post-37).

That is interesting.

The fact that I failed to make WAR blood tanking work in lvl 50+ exp. party, that does not mean others cannot make it work. However, my opinion won't change yet, unless someone can put it into practice successfully.

Maybe WAR/BLU will work, and looks good on paper. Certainly level 74+ WAR/NIN works, for those WAR who actually have the heart to do it. For those who rush NIN to level 37, and DD only WAR/NIN from level 37 ~ 73, it would take them a while to learn....

[Kitalrez]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Except that would kind of require that healers be a popular job right now, which they're really not. DNC might change that some, but one of the main SMN gripes has always been that we spend 65 levels playing our subjob more than our main. Very few people want to be WHM or /WHM if they can help it. If you tie WAR into needing more than one of those in a party, you basically cripple them.

Please oh Please.... Summoner Update.....

I want my avatars to be able to DD and use less Mp, Also please fix spirits....... I have been waiting since Dec for this...

Nah, I have to disagree with you here, at least on the first spot. Granted, this is coming from a guy with Royal Cloak, 6/8 HQ sticks, and both the 50 and 71 rings, but if you reduce my avatar mp costs down any more, you start making me godly. Right now, I may be limited in what I take on with a SMN party, but we're eerily efficient at it. Sometimes we make THF burn parties look weak by comparison. My gear isn't prohibitively assigned either, by that I mean that if you farmed hard enough, you can probably get what I have. It's within everyone's reach. Unlike some other jobs on Diabolos, who have to pray that there's some kind of glitch in the system so they can beat Poisoned's bot farmer to a Nidhog claim. (Wish I was kidding about that, but you've really gotta read their comments on KI's boards, no secrets there).

What would help us out more is your second suggestion, IMO. Avatars weren't meant to be our bread and butter summons. They're the sparkly rewards at the end of the road, not the beginning requirements. To fix that, you've gotta tweak spirits to the point where they become more useful. For one fix, maybe drop their costs a little. Not much, definitely not 5 points or more at 75+. One or two points, make them slightly cheaper than avatars when fully merited. Give them back the native en-spell damage normal elementals get. Give them back the strong melee resistance normal elementals get, instead of the weak or nonexistant one they get now. Tweak the AI/summoning magic ratio down more so "aggressive mode" is reachable with a lower skill above max.

Tweak gear.
1. Bump Dragon Staff up -1 perp, so it's on par with the normal elemental staves. Give people a reason to dump most of these once they get it. Make every other mage on the server's life easier. Yes, this will make Astral Staff obsolete... most of the post RoZ stuff has already done that for other jobs.
2. As you do that, put in a lower level rod + item/shield combo with -1 perp each item. Something that adds up to Dragon Staff, but still doesn't diminish its usefulness for a job with B's in staff skill.
3. Create a lvl 30's set of gear with +summoning magic on it. We don't see raises in this beyond the earring now until way too late to matter. If spirits are to become useful again, something has to show up at this range. Heck, the whole set could have 5 def each item, no stats, and be bright orange and purple. It'd still be worth having if you could gain 10-15 skill from wearing it. An elemental would still become useful, and we'd still be the even more fragile glass version of our "glass cannon" BLM friends.

And finally, change the engine a bit so -perp gear checks before our auto-refresh. We have one job defining trait, and that trait is almost useless if we're actually playing our job instead of our sub. A gimpy whm with perma refresh is useful to an exp party, for most of our levelling careers a real summoner is not.

[Richie]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

If you have taken notice of the last few patches/xp content/jobs just about everything is aimed at small party game play. If they do change rdm it's not going to be regen and reraise it's going to be something that helps them function better in that low man pt, most likely melee dd/tank related.

[Raydeus]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Like native Vorpal Blade dagger/sword B+ and some Spellblade-like Tier II Enspells?

[Karinya]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

my personal suspicion is that they're going to make something new, something that may not necessarily take into account that where /SCH really falls apart is as a solo sub.

So what? Every sub doesn't have to be useful for every purpose. /SCH lacks versatility because of SCH's gimpy spell list; that's part of the design of SCH. It's powerful enough for a situation where you mainly just want to use your main job's spells anyway, that it doesn't need to *also* be good in situations where you want the wider spell list you'd get from /WHM, /RDM or whatever.

Although for WHM main, I think it may not fall apart as a solo sub after all. Drain and Aspir you can actually land, *and* 10% off all your white magic spells, is probably going to beat anything you'd have gotten from another sj. (Phalanx and Enspells, maybe? Depends on your solo style. Drain and Aspir won't help you if you're soloing undead.)


Anyway, where SCH really falls apart IMO is as a main job at low to mid levels. Stratagems have a long timer, the interesting ones come late, and their spell list is just too limited, even with the aid of a subjob. There's nothing a SCH can do that someone else can't do as well or better until 40, and even then it's just Regenga II (all the other neat Accession tricks require a spell that you have to get through a subjob, in the 50s or later; or are arbitrarily banned like Accession+Raise or Reraise). Meanwhile they're a limited, Eraseless and Hasteless healer or a low-skill, MAB-less nuker. (Or both, aka pre-Refresh RDM with about half the spells.)

And of course, anyone who doesn't level it as a main can't use it as a sub.

[Malacite]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

Avatars weren't meant to be our bread and butter summons.

I'm going to have to call you out on that one. That's utter bull shit and you know it. They are the iconic symbols for which the job has become loved for since it's inception in FF3. To say that the job was not designed to use the tools that it's most famously known for is nonsense.

This is a dead horse issue, suffice to say the community knows that SMN is in bad need of an overhaul.

[Thoris]

Re: Version Update Notice (02/05/2008)

You can say that again